Pathetic operator

[Deas Plant]

Surfer Joe, How's yer arthritis?

Hi, Surfer Joe.
I too have had a little tussle with osteo-arthritis, mainly in my left knee, about 14 months ago but now have it under control and pain-free.

If you're interested, drop me an e-mail and I'll tell you how I handled it. It's not an instant cure but I was back to pretty much normal in about 2 1/2 months. The same methods have helped several others since.

 

[MKTEF]

Gratulations Joe.:drinkup
Hope u will be happy in your new job.

It's a interresting discussion here regarding wearing boots.

But i tend to say, that if u don't wear your boots all the time, u will take shortcuts and forget to take them on when u should have.
And u can bet that something happends at that time.

We have very strict rules on fysical demands for our operators that wan't to go abroad with us.
In one mision we didn't apply the security rules strict enough, so people used sandals all day long. (It is hot in Iraq.)
So one day a plate of steel came over, hitting the foot of one of our guys.
2 years later he still has some broken bones inside his wrist/ancle.(they don't heal properly, he may have to remove some)
He will be disabled for the rest of his life.
I can't say if a steel toe would have saved him. But it would maybe redused the damage.
So now i have lost one good operator, and he is disabled for the rest of his life. He can't walk properly on that foot.
But he is still operating machinery in his sivilian job.(they don't have the same regulations as we.)

Last mision i bought new boots for everybody. And insisted on that they should use them.
And i know that we saved one pair of toes! So the investment payd off!
And thats the reason behind that i can be a pain in th ***, when discussing this with my guy's at work.

So how can we get everybody to wear boots?:cool2

Regulations must come first, if not people would go naked.
I then think next is to find boots that are good on your feet.
Last the way people think and behave must be right.

And i know from our shooepusher that he got something for everybody.
There are so many produsers that i beliewe everybody will find a pair of shoes that is very good to wear.

I have ended up with a pair of theese.
Gore-tex, nailprotection, chem/oilresistant, shock absorbed, antistatic and water peel off.
Rather expensive, but the Army pays for it.200$(the firms have to buy u workwear here in Norway.)
I wear out one pair a year, and they function in cold and hot climate as well.
Give them some polish and they look like the army boots.

 

[surfer-joe]

Well, that's what it's come down to. We now have to wear our protective gear all the time whilst on the job. Hard hat, safety glasses, steel-toed boots, and now a days, a bright vest or orange shirt or jacket. Now I'm positive that the vest doesn't help do anything for an equipment operator sitting in the seat of his dozer. But the idea is that sooner or later that operator is going to get off to take a whiz or go talk to a grade-checker or something, and that's when he needs the vest.

It's those guys that have not worn the protective gear and gotten hurt that have spoiled it if you will, for the rest.

In 1974 one of the machines on one of my jobs was an old Cat 631 hard hitch water wagon. It was ugly as sin but fast once you got it cranked up. The general superintendent had a son that wasn't the brightest lamp in the room, but he was a good kid all the same and we were bringing him along on the iron so that eventually he could be an operator and make a living for himself. He was doing alright when his dad put him on the 631.

We had a crew of Wyoming cowboys on 651 scrapers and were setting new production records almost every week. They were hard riding and hard drinking fellas and really pushed the limits. The dirt super was a guy that was the spitting image of Chief Sitting Bull, but he knew dirt and how to get it moved. He tweaked the haul roads, cuts, and fills till there was something moving everywhere all the time. One of the things he was really good at was haul road layout. He'd study on a portion of the route that was slowing things up, then make some changes to it that allowed the scrapers to hi-ball thorough.

One part of our road at the bottom end of the lake had a sharp curve in it with an uphill jog right after. It was the uphill part that was the problem for the loaded scrapers as they had to slow way down for the curve and couldn't get back up to speed for the climb.

So he had a D9 and the 16 blade go over and construct a "super" elevation in that curve. They kept fussing with it till it was pretty high and smooth on the outside and those big ole 651's barreled around it at top speed without slowing down a lick. Production picked up immediately and everyone was happy.

Now the kid on the water wagon was happy too because he could stay with the scrapers and not be in the way. He was zooming around splashing water everywhere and keeping the haul road wet down just right. Course that old hard hitch pitched him around quite a bit compared to the 51's, all of which were cushion hitched. But he rode it hard and compared it to bronc riding, which he'd done some of.

So round and round he went and things were going fine one morning when the elevation in that curve started to develop a pothole. There are two machines that will destroy a haul road or start a pothole faster than anything else I've ever seen, and that's loaded 651 scrapers and loaded 777 haul trucks. There is just something about them that moves the earth out from under and quickly at that.

So the pothole gets worse and the kid gets a load of lake water and round the road he goes. When he takes the curve he is flat out just ahead of a couple of scrapers and he hits the by now very deep pothole. The 631 dips the right front wheel and then pitches up like a snake. This throws the kid around a bit and his hard hat flies off his head over to the right, back behind the engine firewall and ahead of the hitch.

This old tractor had one of those old pipe ROPS deals, it wasn't an engineered design, just something the company threw together to satisfy the Corps of Engineers on a job in southern Colorado some time before where everything had to have some sort of ROPS. Because of the way it had to be mounted on the tractor, the rear legs were very close to the operators station and the inner rear leg was bent and curved somewhat inwards to clear the hitch in a full 90 degree hard right turn against the stops.

Well, when the kid's hard hat flew off, he immediately let go of the steering wheel and twisting around, he grabbed for it as it sailed off over the hood. One other bad feature of this model 631 was that they tended to straighten themselves out without the steering wheel being held in a turning position, so the ole girl did what came naturally and straightened out -- and promptly flew right off that 16 or 20 foot high elevation. At about the same time, the kid is stretched out fully trying to grab his hat, and the rear wheels of the tanker hit the pothole. This all happened at once faster than the blink of an eye you know.

The rear wheels hitting the pothole slammed the tanker back over to the left against the stops in the hitch. That slammed the tractor, which was no longer on the ground but in the air, sharply back to the left. That motion slammed the kids head up against the right rear ROPS leg, smacking him sharply in the right forehead area and smashing his skull bone into several pieces, probably knocking him unconscious in the process, which was a good thing for what happened next.

The machine, now entirely mobile in the air, did what all things do and came back to mother earth. It hit very hard about 75 or a 100 feet out from the curve, then it bounced. We measured that bounce at 110 feet before it came down again, and it bounced several more times before finally rolling to a stop up against a little outcropping of rock.

Several of us had actually watched this happen as we were sitting a little ways off discussing production and maintenance issues along with the general important issues of the time, which included who hit who at the bar the night before and where the biggest Mule Deer were to found. The kid's old man also witnessed this event from his perch on top of a rocky little crag where he could see the entire operation, and privately drink his Scotch whisky without anyone seeing him.

So we all rush over and find the kid leaning out the left side of the seat. His seat belt held him in, which we thought was probably a good thing actually. He was bleeding like crazy, but still breathing. He was not responsive. We drug him out of the seat and laid him on the ground. A couple of us cleaned him up a bit and wrapped some shirts around his head -- which we could see was damaged very badly. Meanwhile someone had called into our office and asked them to get an ambulance up to our end of the job right away. I got up on the water wagon and set the brakes, then placed the shifter into neutral and shut the engine off. There was blood and gore everywhere.

We figured out later that the kid got thrown around like a marble in a tin can while the machine was gyrating wildly. We don't know how many times he hit his head after the first time. He also suffered several busted ribs, a broken shoulder, and his right arm was broken. He displaced several vertebra in his neck and compressed some on his lower spine. One of his legs was broken too as were some of his fingers and one wrist. The ambulance eventually arrived and took him to local hospital, then he was air-lifted to Casper and later to Cheyenne. We shut the job down for the rest of the day and sent all the hands home except a few who were witnesses. I of course had to stay both as a witness and an accident investigator.

The upshot of all this was that the kid should have let the hardhat go and concentrated on his steering. But he was young and inexperienced and really did what comes naturally to most folks. You grab for something of yours that's falling off. The rest was as I described it.

The young fellow spent nearly a year in hospital -- six months in an induced coma -- with surgery after surgery and lots of therapy. The doctors were able to repair his busted noggin with a big silver plate and some screws to hold it down. They couldn't cover it all up because the skin over that area had been torn off and we never found it. So he had this silvery plate sticking out, wherever he didn't have the watch cap he took to wearing pulled down over it. Surprisingly, he wasn't in much worse shape mentally than before the accident. Physically, he was a mess. He told me one time that he didn't remember a thing about nothing after reaching for his hat, untill he awoke screaming several months later.

The point I'm demonstrating, is that protective gear doesn't always save you from injury, sometimes it's part of the problem. One hears of an orange vest getting hooked on a tailgate or a lever, causing injury. I've seen the guy with the smashed foot right behind the boot steel toe, which had to be surgically removed as it had bent down on top of the area right behind the big toe clamping the boot onto his foot. The gloves that catch, the coveralls that burn, all things designed to help protect your hide from injury and wind up actually causing it instead or making what might have been a minor hurt worse.

One can also say that humans cause their own accidents, and I think that true to a point. But sometimes you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and occasionally things you are using or wearing make things worse instead of better.

I never saw the kid again after leaving Wyoming. We finished the job -- with the 631 water wagon in right to the end -- and everyone scattered as construction hands do. I think of the kid from time to time, wondering how he's doing and still amazed at the resilience and tenacity of a man that keeps him alive after going through something so terrible. I understand it having been thorough it myself, but it's still a wonder.

 

[biggixxerjim]

Laugh all you want- right off my jobsite. There will be someone behind you that takes the job seriously.

Im with Brian Hay here.... If Im driving past a jobsite and am lookin for a job, I will stop in and say hello... regardless of what Im wearing. No reason to drive 30 mins home and 30 back so I can put on boots to get out of my car and walk 30 feet to talk to somone.

And someone who would not talk to me because I didnt have boots on is someone that would probably be a pain to deal with on numerous other issues, so I would not be comming back regardless.

Also, steel toed boots can actually be quite dangerous. Ive heard of people having their feet ran over by trucks, and all the steel toe did was neatly amputate their toes...

 

[MKTEF]

Well, a sad story. But when u have spent time in this business you get to see some accidents.

For the west, nearly nobody wears it here in the country.(everybody must have one in their car anyway.)
It came an regulation connected to the workers health law, that said u got to wear visibility clothes nearly everywhere.
When the companys had to buy workers clothes they combined the two.

So everywhere u go u see workers clothes acording to EU regulations.
Either in the bright yellow or bright orange with the firmlogo on the shoulders and on the front.(EN 471/472 standard)
Thats way u get the sharp colour and all that reflecting area.
You don't find any operator working without clothing like this.
And if u take off the jacket there is enough colour and reflecting area on the trousers.

 

[CM1995]

And someone who would not talk to me because I didnt have boots on is someone that would probably be a pain to deal with on numerous other issues, so I would not be comming back regardless.

I tend to look at it another way. If someone shows up on a large jobsite with many pieces of equipment and people working with flip flops, no shirt or shorts on it tells me they - a) Don't understand basic jobsite rules, which could mean they are green b) they know and they just don't care or c) know the rules but think it is alright "just this one time". Either way I don't have time to train someone new with the basics only to leave for a few pennies more later on down the road after I have OJT invested in them, deal with a cowboy that thinks the rules don't apply to them or have someone that knows better but will take shortcuts. Now this is my view and I am in no way making a blanket statement about anyone.

Small business owners have tremendous amounts of liability everyday - for all sorts of things. My risk management approach is to try and weed out any problems before they constitute a major issue. And yes this is "one size fits all approach" but the world is not mine raise. There is alot more to running a small business than just pushing dirt. Take for example: If a guy gets hurt on a jobsite and decides to hire one of those ambulance chasers - what is the first thing lawyer will bring up? The employer did not provide adequate safety training and gear for this guy to perform his job. WC and GL (if the insurance companies will still write you a policy) rates go through the roof and hopefully there is still a company left after it is all over with.

Employers have the responsibility not only to the individual employee but all of the employee's. This means safeguarding the company from exposure to incidents/accidents that may very well take their job security away. I am not willing to let one guy take away what I have stressed, struggled and worked my behind off for 12 years to achieve. And if this means not talking to someone because they come onto the jobsite in flipflops then so be it - the world is a tough place. I agree with Surfer-joe that alot of the safety standards have been placed into law through countless lobbyists for mutliple safety supply companies. Never the less, "it is what it is" and owners have to abide by the rules. If I thought I could influence Washington DC on legistlative issues I would start with border security and all those billions of dollars of "aid" we send to foreign countries that hate the US - whoa slipping into another whole discussion. If I get on my :soapbox about that I will be here all day.

Another anology : Discussions in various threads on this forum have been about how a clean, well kept trucks and equipment are one of the best marketing tools to potential customers. I don't think anyone would say a dirty, smashed up machine gives a better impression to a new customer than a clean, well kept machine. I view these two issues similiarly. A potential hire showing up in flipflops instead of "ready to work" shows me alot about them.

Of course we all have to run our businesses/ careers and lives in a manner that works for us. Would I miss out on a great operator over the flip flop issue - probably.

I am just trying to present another view from across the table.

 

[d4c24a]

boots

well here in the uk if you turn up to a construction job without steel toecap boots you dont get on site its as simple as that,usualy hiviz jacket , hardhat ,ear defenders are included. i am in and out of the machine all day so boots are on all the time also we have to wear proban clothing,trousers and long sleeved shirts

 

[surfer-joe]

I have done a ton of job hunting just driving from job to job and everywhere in between. I didn't dress fancy, but I didn't wear surfin' clothes either. All the same, a guy looking for a job and the fella looking for help should be able to get together at the jobsite without either one being overly stiff-lipped about how the guy looking for work is dressed at the moment. This really is a time-honored tradition here in the states, I don't know how it's done elsewhere.

Obviously the potential employee is not going to work at that very instant, not these days anyway, and he'll have plenty of time to go home and get what he needs if he doesn't already have it with him as I usually did.

Just for example, I'm going to start a new job Monday. They gave me a packet about an inch and a half thick with forms to fill out, instructions on how to fill out the forms, warnings, an employee manual and I don't know what all yet. I'm on my 3rd day reading and filling in the blanks or signing off where indicated and I'm maybe a little better than half done. We didn't used to have all this you know, back in the bad old days.

In the times at present, with good experienced hands hard to come by, someone looking for help -- might want to be receptive to those just dropping by.

Always remember, clothes, nor the way a person wears them, make the man!

 

[Steve Frazier]

Also, steel toed boots can actually be quite dangerous. Ive heard of people having their feet ran over by trucks, and all the steel toe did was neatly amputate their toes...

False. Disproved by "Myth Busters". I saw the episode.

 

[Deas Plant]

On Clothes Making The Man.

Hi, CM1995 and SurferJoe.
The only reference I have ever used when applying for a job is what I can do with a machine when I put my ample butt in the seat. Similarly, I have applied for a lot of jobs where I walked in off the street just 'cos I saw the site while I was going past and mostly I was wearing something less than current regulation footwear. I got starts on most of those sites.

If I was going for a job where I had made an appointment for an interview, I would front for that appointment looking like I was ready to start work but that is a whole different ball game from just walking in 'cos you've seen the site while driving past.

Many years ago on a pipeline job in Sydney, New South Wales, DownUnder, there was a welder who was selling pipeliner caps as a sideline. He suggested to me one day that I ought to buy one of his caps and BE a pipeliner. He was a little put out when I pointed out to him that it was the man under the cap that made the pipeliner rather than the cap itself and that I didn't need one of his caps to be who and what I was.

One thing we DON'T have to deal with DownUnder is any Corps Of Engineers. ALL site inspection/control/etc., is done by private companies separate from the principal contractor. ON major projects, there is usually one contract for the work to be done and another for the inspection, quality and safety control.

On smaller jobs where compaction and/or environment are issues, there is usually a 'resident' dirt doctor who is responsible to his company for any compaction issues and responsible to his company and the dept. of environment and whoever else might be involved for environment issues. That 'resident' is required to be there at all times while work is in progress. They are also often responsible for keeping an eye on broader safety issues but the main safety resposnsibility still comes down to the employer and the workers.

Let the discussion continue.

 

[LDK]

Were they the bad old days?

Obviously the potential employee is not going to work at that very instant, not these days anyway, and he'll have plenty of time to go home and get what he needs if he doesn't already have it with him as I usually did.

!

Hey Joe, they were good days as far as I'm concerned. When you pulled up on a job looking for the start, if they had a machine standing they wanted you in the seat straight away. The work had more of a buzz about it and was way more fun on and off site than most of the jobs now in my opinion. That said most of my time is spent overseas now so it doesn't matter I suppose.
Good luck with the new job too.

 

[BrianHay]

Some great stories in here for the safety competition eh?

Thats the same reason why I would not go back biggixxerjim.

I really dont think anyone working on the jobsite would change their habits with their saftey gear because of a breif conversation with a perspective new hire who stopped in. Now if the new guy showed up for work still dressed that way, that is different. That would for sure be a problem.

To think that a person is not going to take care of a machine because of the type of footwear they choose I think is a poor analogy. Because I like to wear flipflops does not mean I am a lazy slob. Any machine I operate is very well looked after. It is not neglected in any way. It is my bread and butter and where I spend more time then anywhere else. It never starves for grease or oil and my cab is cleaner then the cab of most pickups. And I clean my cab on my own time as well. Usualy on a break or after hours with my own cleaning supplies.

 

[BrianHay]

I miss those times as well LDK. We worked hard and we played hard. Everyone was happy (for the most part) and a lot less stressed. Things were a lot simpler but no less productive because of it....I wonder what things will be like when our kids are our age.

 

[CM1995]

To think that a person is not going to take care of a machine because of the type of footwear they choose I think is a poor analogy. Because I like to wear flipflops does not mean I am a lazy slob. Any machine I operate is very well looked after. It is not neglected in any way. It is my bread and butter and where I spend more time then anywhere else. It never starves for grease or oil and my cab is cleaner then the cab of most pickups. And I clean my cab on my own time as well. Usualy on a break or after hours with my own cleaning supplies.

I think I might have not explained my analogy the way I meant it. The point was perception. Perception is often perceived as reality - whether good or bad. I didn't mean that everyone who showed up in flip flops would be a lazy slob who wouldn't take care of a machine. Just like it doesn't mean that the guy with the dirty, smashed up equipment might not be the best guy in town. But he will limit his potential new customers through the image he puts forth. Conversely, the guy with the cleanest, newest equipment in town may be a crook. There are exceptions to everything. My point was you should show your best side in the business world regardless. It's a tough world out there and you need to use everything you have to your advantage - within ethical reasons.

If you are out looking for a job with that specific purpose in mind wouldn't you dress the part? If I were a desk jocky (heaven forbid) I wouldn't go into a nice office building with flip flops on to see if they were hiring. Just like a suit is required to work for corporate America, boots and all the related items are required for the construction field. I believe there is no difference in professionalism between the two just different costumes.

I miss those times as well LDK. We worked hard and we played hard. Everyone was happy (for the most part) and a lot less stressed. Things were a lot simpler but no less productive because of it....I wonder what things will be like when our kids are our age.

I totally agree. Things were alot less stressed and alot less regulations. And I am not so sure we are any better off for it. But these are the rules you have to play the game by now. Gov't pinheads, trial lawyers and insurance companies put forth the rules we have to abide by whether you or I ,like it or not. It's scary to think of how it will be for our children and grandchildren.

 

[BrianHay]

Yes that is true I agree 100%. Like I said in one of my previous posts if I left the house with the intention of going to your jobsite, I would be wearing the right costume. But if I was just out and about and spotted your job I would not hesitate to stop in the way I was dressed. When I introduced myself I would let you know in some way that I was passing by and decided to stop. Almost every job I have ever gotten has been from stopping in on a jobsite like that. I find out who is in charge and wait for an appropriate time to aprouch him. When he is away from most of the action. None of use like an unknown tourist venturing out into the action on foot or in a vehicle no mater how they are dressed. I extend my hand for a handshake and say somthing like. Hi my name is Brian Hay I was driving past and spotted your job thought I would stop in and see if you were looking for any operators. I have always gotten a positive welcome. Some ask, do you have boots? We have to wear them on our jobs. I reply, I sure do. I would be wearing them now but wasnt expecting to be stopping. The normal response is. Right on glad you stopped Brian, see you in the morning?

 

[tw_692000]

I was browsing through Iron Planet and ran across this 2005 315CL with 1700 hours on it. If that was my machine there would be an operator(s) that would be standing in the soup kitchen line!

I don't care what application this hoe was used in but abusing a machine like that is uncalled for.

i would like to know where the owner of the machine has been ,because that all didn't happen in a day by all the rust on the counter weight.....contractor that lets his equipment get like that isn't going to be in buisness for long with expenses like those......

 

[brandt pc400]

I know were you are coming from.
I was on a job a few weeks ago and the union hall sent two young guys out to the job. I asked if they could run a skid loader and they said yes. I had one grade an area, and told him to stay 3 or 4 ft. away from a fiber optic cable. (marked it and showed him) Few minutes later he cut it. That got fixed and I had the other one running my 953C Loader and he had the bucket as high as it would go running on a 2.5 to 1 slope I told him to keep the bucket low, Next thing I know the loader is on it's side. A couple more things happened like that and I sent them both back to the hall. They did not care and did not figure out anything. One told me he would be on a job tomorrow so he did not care to do things right.
I have owned a company and worked as a operator. So I have seen both sides. I guess the best thing to do, is do the best you can and try to please your boss. I know that some bosses are impossible to please.

Who do you work for ?:usa

 

[Iron Horse]

After seeing that link belt i now know what my Jonyang is a copy of , it's a dead ringer . One small point about trashed machines working in scrap yards etc is that sometimes the machines are bought out of auction yards damaged . It could have had a rollover or fallen off a lowboy , same as storm chasers buy late model low milage cars with hail damage from auctions as they are going to get beat up anyway .

 

[Bellboy]

MKTEF: Like the spiffy looking yellow and orange jackets, me like.

Now please tell me why operator training was invented and why it was such a good idea??

 

[Deas Plant]

Regulations, safety and operator ability.

Hi, Folks.
Yesterday, I was running a Cat 943 track loader spreading fill material that was being trucked in on a pond wall. I was using a spreader bar with the loader to leave pretty much finished product behind me. There was a vibrating sheepsfoot roller looking after compaction. After he had done his thing, I would run the spreader bar over the area again and a vibrating smooth-drum, run by the same roller operator, was used to seal it off in the event of rain. So far, so good.

Now we come to the tragic bit. The roller operator saw me run the spreader bar over an area for the second time so that he could seal it off with the smooth-drum. He drove the sheepsfoot roller almost 200 yards around the haul road and up onto the fill in an area that had already been sealed off, turned it around on the sealed-off area and parked it. He then switched over to the the smooth-drum to seal off the area that I had just brushed over, leaving the surface of the area where he had parked the sheepsfoot somewhat chewed up and no longer sealed.

The real rub here is that the sheepsfoot roller was still required where he had just driven it from. He finished his smooth-drum rolling and had to get the sheepsfoot back off the sealed area and back to where it was still needed. Why not walk the 200 yards in the first place and save making a mess that had to be cleaned up again?

Lack of training? Lack of forethought? Not caring? No consideration for others on the job? All of the above? All I know is that I seem to be seeing more of this sort of behaviour and this sort of operator as the years progress. Or is it just that I am becoming more observant as I grow older?

These guys have all the safety training, the paperwork, the 'RIGHT' safety wear, safety briefings every morning, 'toolbox' safety meetings every week, safety alerts about accidents and incidents, they fill in their plant inspection reports every morning, they have rotating beacons, reversing alarms 2-way radios and broadcast radios/CD players fitted to their machines but they can't or don't THINK.

I have yet to meet anybody who can explain to me how filling in a plant inspection report every morning makes me a better, SAFER operator when I have been doing those same inspections for so long now WITHOUT the paperwork that I can no more start up without the inspections than go to work without my boots.

A loaded truck got bogged on that same job last week. The safety officer insisted that the truck driver fill out an incident report about it. They managed to break a 3/8" chain trying to pull the truck out with 20-ton excavator - because the truck driver had the truck in reverse instead if in 1st gear. The safety officer had a bit to say the next morning about using chains to pull anything out of a bog. He insisted that only CERTIFIED AND TAGGED chains be brought onto the site. Certified and tagged chains are chains that are used for lifting. Such chains are required by regulation to be used only for lifting. They are not to be used for towing. Yet we have a SAFETY OFFICER telling us that we MUST use them and them only for towing. How do you win?

Soapbox does its thing again. Just my 0.02.