Line Boring Systems

[Williams Marine]

Oh yeah, a bit of confusion on my LN-25 and just what I would need to run the York Smart Bore Welder. I would be using a Miller XMT 350 MPa inverter for my power.
Any input on this subject would be welcome.

ETER, very nice looking welds in your post above. Hope see more of your setup.

 

[StanRUS]

Oh yeah, a bit of confusion on my LN-25 and just what I would need to run the York Smart Bore Welder. I would be using a Miller XMT 350 MPa inverter for my power.
Any input on this subject would be welcome.

ETER, very nice looking welds in your post above. Hope see more of your setup.

All US bore welder manufactures recommend LN25 with burn back timer; we do not use burn back timer and have Zero problems.

Smart Bore Welder? The sales person you'd talk with Chris is honest & will bluntly tell you Smart Bore Welder IS NOT required for construction equipment type borewelding.

In your position I would not make any purchasing discussions until you sit down & line out each guys pricing, the actual real world capabilities of the machines & then forget PUSH the whole deal out of your mind for a couple months. These outfits have turned into USED CAR TYPE SALES PEOPLE

One of the welding only guys (35+yrs) recently purchased Miller's 800Dual Air Pack $40thou +, telling me all about 'wireless remote control'; my response, after 35yrs welding you still cannot pre-set wire speed & voltage! The look on his face was totally priceless !!!!! 2.5yr after buying complete BB5000, he's 100% convinced using carbide tooling is impossible, to proud to ask for help....


Take care

 

[ETER]

There is a huge difference between different welding machines. We only use inverters with a synergic function. Our remote controls have 10 turn pots for volt and wire feed adjustments. We can alter by 0.1 of a volt and wire at .1 of a metre. A good welder with synergic will compenate for different requirements of current while welding such as oil leaking out of joins etc. We use Kemppi but Miller are ok.
Good quality wire (S6) and not rubbish that has a wax on it.That will coat your tips and turn welding into hard work.

Ray, I was not aware of synergic function welders (did some reading on them), as for how they can compensate for "oil draw" is still way above my head. My Lincoln SP255 is a 20 year old machine, not too many bells and whistles. Also Ray, the service manual for the Komotsu PC120 that I am working on does not list the clearance/interference for the boom to arm pin bores in the boom...currently having a new pin made (I already have the new bushings for the arm bore)..what would be a good pin (70mm) to remachined bore fit?

Stan, just learned yesterday coincidentally while talking the the BRS rep of the "temper bead welding" practice, I also realise that my ground clamp could be problematic (will be replacing with a c-clamp)...Question, are you saying that just the second pass tends to be "harder", or all subsequent passes?

Williams Marine, thanks and good luck on "The Quest"! Stan makes a good point on gathering all the "comparative data" and then sleeping on it for awhile (maybe even go into a coma) before making a final decision:drinkup
Regards, Bob

 

[RayF]

I don't know how it works either. It just does. The other handy thing is you preset the parameter and the volt knob becomes a fine adjustment either side of the preset. As you increase or decrease the wire speed the volts automatically adjust to the wire feed. So starting a bore using 1.2mm wire I start at about 2.8 metres a minute starting at the bottom and going up the bore.coming down start increasing wire. All done with one knob. You just give it more wire as you get into the bore. No juggling volts and amps. No stalactites going up on the first run.
The bushing sizes are easy. The crush is built into the bearing. So if the bearing measures say 95.12mm you cut the bore 95.00. The crush is 0.12 or about 5 thou. Fitted pin clearance varies between manufacturers but on that diameter 6 to 8 thou is what I would use. You need a bit of room for grease. A Komatsu 70mm pin would usually measure around 69.9 to 69.95.

 

[StanRUS]

Line Boring Systems & Borewelders

Question, are you saying that just the second pass tends to be "harder", or all subsequent passes?

I was referring to boring machining passes, not welding passes:Banghead...If your boring machine will cut all weld build with ONE ROUGH pass, that is recommended.

Subsequent welding passes BEADS will partly anneal each underlying layer, dependent on heat input, travel speed etc...Former policy was over weld the last pass & wash the excess off with oxy-ac torch, bit of stress relief and NO grinding.

Bob, imagine your BRS (Cmax Dozer) minus the rectangular housing; housing replaced with small-ish diameter lightweight aluminum tube. Lots easier to position in tight space limited job setups, example underneath dozers repairing equalize cradle bores, RTF bores etc. I don't give a rats-a$$ about having a billboard advertising my equipment, that can be accomplished with Line boring girl:cool2

Schweißtechnik
TWI~The Welding Institute~What is Synergic MIG/MAG welding and what are it’s advantageous?
http://www.twi-global.com/technical...-mig-mag-welding-and-what-are-its-advantages/

 

[StanRUS]

Line Boring Systems & Borewelders



Williams Marine,
Save $$$$, Single mounting arms cost over $1,250.00ea. Simple to fabricate, any outfit with CNC oxy-ac or plasma can cut the dimensions per the attached file. You can fab single, double and universal mounting arms...Money saved will pay for Electric motor and Speed Controller with change left over.

York's service-support: Probably better than Cmax, small organization with limited products, they depend on the Little Guys for their revenue. Easy Weld-Smart Weld are not KISS, I am not implying anything is wrong with those products. I would want to know if York provides a comprehensive Repair Service Manual with illustrations, Instructions and parts lists with part purchase sources. Same applies to any manufacture, Cmax, B&D, BRS etc...I do not want to send machine back to the OEM for repairs, because that typically means 2 1/2 weeks or more 'out of service'.

MMR: there is not a STANDARD that all the manufacture use to rate their machines for purchasing comparison purposes

OH, rectangular blue line = RDU design constraint; got to fit within those basic dimensions

Cheers

 

[ETER]

I was referring to boring machining passes, not welding passes:Banghead...If your boring machine will cut all weld build with ONE ROUGH pass, that is recommended.

Subsequent welding passes BEADS will partly anneal each underlying layer, dependent on heat input, travel speed etc...Former policy was over weld the last pass & wash the excess off with oxy-ac torch, bit of stress relief and NO grinding.

Gotcha Stan, and thanks! (Sometimes you have to speak in the "lonnggg" English for me. One of my last bosses in the service always use to say "don't sacrifice clarity for brevity!"
So far I have been ok with .030 (dia.) cuts/pass...haven't pushed the mag drill any harder yet. I think I understand the purpose of annealing (decarburizing?), but why no grinding? The web page that you linked was the same web page that I read the other day when Ray mentioned synergic welding very interesting, still very confusing.
Regards, Bob

 

[Williams Marine]

Have decided which manufacture to go with and almost the package. York by the way.
Dealing with the financing side of the equation now.
I have read elsewhere in HEF some about how to charge for a line boring job. I understand hourly rates differ throughout the readership. Not looking for what I should charge. Looking for advice on the formula that is used, hourly rate, size of bore, etc. ???
Any and all answers are welcome as always, the past posts have been a great help.
Just wish these "line boring" headaches each day would go away.
Ray

 

[ETER]

Hey Ray it is good to hear that you about have the deal all but nailed down, it sounds like this additional service of your business will be a real plus for you. I am not sure how bore repair will be effected by your line of repair work? (marine wise)... Over here (in the woods) for me I plan on factoring in the bore repair portion just like any other aspect of the job...meaning if I have 24 hours total labor wrapped up in the job and the actual bore repair was 50% of the labor time it will be billed out as total time on the machine repair and the bore repair itself won't be separated in the bill. I understand that to bid on an on-site bore repair job you will have to have a rate to go by.
I just finished up the little Komatsu boom/stick and bucket pin bore repair and since I am a "newbie" at the bore repair, the actual bore repair (machining/welding) was about 90% of the repair and the disassemble/assemble part of the machine maybe 10%?
Regards, Bob

 

[BuMach]

Hi ray, i personaly bill per hour.
I've got a labour rate and if the job consist of disassembly and assemble work to i'll take my normal rate. The line boring itself i use my line boring rate. If i need to weldin the bore too, then i just ask weldingcosts.
If the costumer ask a fixed price i'll make a price all in.

But that being said. I probely have more competition in the neabourhood than you probely will have.
I know people who charge per 10mm off the bore. But i dont know which way would be better. For the client a fixed price would sometimes be better when things are going though.
But i think a bigger bore will also take a lot longer to fix so there probely is some balance point somewhere.

Good luck and welcome in the line-bore club

 

[Williams Marine]

Bob, you don't add any extra to the invoice when you are line boring? It is just a flat hourly rate, a added service your company supplies to draw in more work?
I have looked at line boring as a way to initially attract more work by offering a specialty which then hopefully would create the situation where that customer would call me in the future say to do repair work, or needed a certified welder or rigger.
Not sure if that makes sense.

Please upload more of your pictures, great to see.

 

[Williams Marine]

Thanks BuMach, exactly the type of information I am looking for.

Also hope to see more of your work posted here or in your thread.

 

[BuMach]

I also watch that i dont work to cheap. Cause people are willing to pay for the repair.
For example the D9 stabilasor bar i did. Cost €17.000,- new. The line boring i did was €3500,-
So then even a bill of lets say €5000,- would probely be no problem.
It all depends what kind of costumer you can attract with the repairs.
For me personaly i started with line boring to be able to ask more money per hour. And maybe in the future do 50hours of line boring per week instead of fixing by my normal rate.

Cheers

 

[lantraxco]

You have to pay for the equipment, the difference between wrench time and line boring time is like paying an operator to run your machine versus hiring an operator that brings his own excavator with him. It's labor rate plus machining rate in my opinion.

 

[Williams Marine]

In your opinion what would be an excepted markup rate above your hourly rate? 10,15,20 % while using your equipment or more?

Thanks a big help

 

[lantraxco]

Personally I would probably approach it from a payoff point of view, plus consumables. For example figure a five year service life of your boring equipment, so 60 months, estimate how many hours you can bill for the equipment per month, twenty, thirty, forty? Divide the total purchase price by 60 months, then again by the number of hours you've estimated, and you arrive at the payoff cost per hour (estimated). Then you add twenty or thirty percent profit plus consumables which I assume would be cutting bits, welding wire, gas, etc. THEN you have to look at it and ask yourself if it's too steep against your local competition or will price customers out of having the work done. Adjust as needed. By looking at it from this perspective you get the gut check reality of whether this is going to be profitable or a loss leader, or at least how many hours you need to bill out each month to make it worthwhile. As always, heh, YMMV

 

[BuMach]

Ray, i'll charge €40,- or €50,- depending on the client per hour. This is my wrenching rate.
I charge €35,- extra the hour for line boring

 

[Williams Marine]

Excellent lantraxco, using that simple formula being very conservative in my numbers landed me almost right at what I was thinking my hourly rate should be when line boring.
Thank you

 

[ETER]

I understand what you guys are saying with regard to specialised tooling commanding a higher "hourly" rate...I have to put into perspective that someone that has been doing bore repair for years may have a higher quality of work and probably can do the repair faster based on experience. At some point I too may increase the rate for bore repair and pressing operations, but for now I will stay with the KISS approach and to the one shop and one field hourly rate. I see the additional service of bore repair as a business enhancer. As with any new tool purchase we have to do the "when will the tool have paid for itself?" math...it may be the first time you use it, or take many years.
Regards, Bob
PS: The stick cylinder rod was bent and caused the pin to walk out and bent the ear by more than 3/4"

 

[Williams Marine]

I understand what you are saying ETER, I'm looking at it from the perspective of I will have made a sizable investment (30K to 40K), will have to increase my insurance, plus insurance on the equipment itself due to theft, damage or loss. (I can't see Alaska Airline cargo writing me a check for 30K without a fight).
Plus I am bringing a specialized skill and equipment that not ever guy with a welding machine in his PU has.
I think for the risk that you and others are doing the rate should be higher then just your base wage.
The guy running the Mantiwoc 18000 crawler working with Millwrights setting machinery makes more then the guy running the boom truck unloading roof trusses,well I would hope so.