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Line Boring Systems

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by Williams Marine, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I agree. Line boring is a premium skill that not every machine shop is capable of doing, let alone doing it out in the field. It should be priced accordingly. If you have a service that no-one else has you can literally charge what you like because one way or another the customers are going to have to pay it.

    To give you an example of that until we got our own machine on site we used to pay the only company with the capability (in our area that is) $30k for building up and line boring the loader frame & B Pin bores on a large wheel loader. That was 6 bores about 8" diameter and approximately 36" total length (2 x 12" long, 4 x 6" long) for the 6 bores. It was a case of we had no alternative......
     
  2. BuMach

    BuMach Well-Known Member

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    Im having the same point off vieuw as Raf,
    I think the cost and risks and also the specialty is to high to keep the same rate.
    You gotta do some math of course to know your breakeven point.
    But if you do a big job, the equipment could pay its self in 1-2 jobs.

    I always say, Pay peanuts, get monkeys!
    Quality jobs have a certain pricetag.
     
  3. ETER

    ETER Well-Known Member

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    I am in agreement with on all points, but would add that the "sweet spot" for billing with vary depending on location and customer base:drinkup
    Regards, Bob
     
  4. BuMach

    BuMach Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
     
  5. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Shear Sheep short, but do not cut the skin!
     
  6. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Cheap labor isn't skilled. Skilled labor isn't cheap.
     
  7. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Cheaper labor, i.e. apprentice programs are prerequisite to achieve 8,000hrs hand on experience to receive your ticket; Department of Labor CARD as journeyman with SKILLS...You could not be hired on as a inside or outside machinist by any of the trades associated with Shipbuilding or Repairs in the US & most other countries.

    My question, are you planning to practice on your dime for 50-100-150hours with your new boring system? Sounds like you're excepting paying customers to foot your training tab!!!!!
     
  8. digger doug

    digger doug Senior Member

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    Egg-Zachary !

    At first job, you will be very slow, in-efficient, not having it all thought out, dis-organized, etc.
    That first job (and the next couple) should not be priced time & materials, rather firm price.

    Yes you will be losing some money, but no customer will allow you to learn on his dime.
     
  9. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I would go further and suggest that on the first few jobs while you work the bugs out be prepared to invoice the customer at an hourly rate but billing somewhat less hours than you actually spend doing the job to account for the lost time. Once you're up to speed that falls away.
     
  10. digger doug

    digger doug Senior Member

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    I'm thinking that before the job starts, you quote the job based on a standard price, hours not withstanding.
     
  11. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Was going to spend time in my shop honing my skills, first jobs bill according.

    Oh Stan FYI, 4 year degree followed by 4 year Union apprenticeship then followed by 28 years in the real world working prior to going out on my own.
     
  12. digger doug

    digger doug Senior Member

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    Yes, do a "practice job" first.... you'll end up forgetting a tool, wrench etc. it's inevitable, to make mistakes at first.

    Keep notes, you'll start buying tools just for the machine (extra allen wrenches, box wrenches
    etc.) and have them in a job box.

    Maybe even a couple of good 100' extension cords, a magnetic portable light to light up the area,
    measuring tools, a extra mag base a and 1" dial indicator for moving things precisely.

    Minimize "running back to the shop" and you'll get this down pat quickly.
     
  13. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Thanks good information, appreciate your input.
     
  14. Topley Mike

    Topley Mike New Member

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    If we all only did jobs we knew exactly how to do we would never go forwards.
     
  15. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Line Boring Systems & Borewelders

    Practice honing your skills, okay. Standardize your’ test practice procedure so you’ll always test in an identical sequence using the same type of steel, same brinell hardness number, same tool bit geometry etc...Purchase 2” thick X 24” X 24” mild steel plate (C1018, 1026 brinell hardness #100-150)…Set L/D (bar length to diameter support bearing distance) @ 10X (example 2.0” dia bar = 20” support bearing spread distance). Set DOC (depth of cut) @ 0.125” per side (0.250” per bore diameter)...SFM @ 280-350 (for carbide)...IPR (inches per revolution) @ 0.005”
    Locate center on steel test plate, torch cut 2.5” diameter hole, install end of bar driver-feeder & attempt to machine the bore observing the chipping action; swarf turning blue-ish-blue black with chips forming 6s or 9s...if the chips are long-stingy then you’ll either increase feed rate to break chips or use a cutting bit (ground with diamond wheel or inserts) with chip breaker.

    Backing off SFM and feedrate-IPR can cause BUE (built up edge = dulling-wearing of the cutting edges) and can cause ‘work hardening’ of the material your machining.
    Find out what Yorkie will machine; ask Yorkie to due production cut and the 2 bar carriage guide bars will twist causing chatter, vibration and be difficult to achieve an adequate surface finish...easy to test using torque wrench & locking out the driver-feeder assembly!!!!! Or simply read the available information on York's website or listen to the sales people's honest answers, when asked specific questions.
    Practice welding the bores & machining to size; you can then bid jobs with a basic know-how of how long (hours) it will take. Most customers want a quoted bid, how much will the job cost!!!!
     
  16. digger doug

    digger doug Senior Member

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    So your gonna show up at a shop, with no pre preparations ?

    Wing it ?

    At what hourly rate do you get for "winging it" ?
     
  17. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    StanRus, thanks for the suggestions / input.
    It was suggested to me also to use schedule 80 pipe of various diameters and lengths, weld them onto a base and practice on them. I have also found a couple excavator buckets in a scape yard, may get one and rebuild it to include line boring.
    All great information posted, keeps one thinking and looking at it from more then one perspective, which was the reason I started this thread. Would enjoy sitting around the shop with all of you sipping our beverage of choice and getting into a in depth discussion on line boring and much more.
    I think the young guys who want nothing to do with the trades are missing the point, they are missing the Zen and Art of it.
    I highly recommend reading if you haven't yet
    Shop Class As Soulcraft. An inquiry into the value of work. By Matthew B. Crawford
     
  18. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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  19. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Can the monkey join us?
     
  20. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Most certainly ........