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Line Boring Systems

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by Williams Marine, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    G..G..G..Granville...........!!
    Take lots of photos of the equipment (if they'll let you) and post them here ............ :D
     
  2. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Line Boring Systems & Borewelders

    One of those outfits did not have their photobucket account password protected or protected from public viewing:D

    @Williams Marine
    Become a critical thinker, deconstruct their advert hype.
    Look at the photo carefully, describe what you see.
    Hec2sma.jpg
     
  3. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Boring a sleeve out? The photo doesn't look like others I have viewed of line boring. But then what do I know...
     
  4. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Line Boring Systems & Borewelders

    But then what do I know?
    Ans: You want to expand your’ companies’ capabilities; services offered and a future possibly even hire an employee to operate a line boring system. Your potential customer base within a 100 miles radius have medium sized equipment and you might want to Float Plane transport the line boring system.
    Float Plane transport; obviously you’d want a light weight system...York’s aluminum-steel guide-torque reaction rod electric feed ‘carriage’ & bar powered by a mag-drill or core-drill motor @ 1st glance looks to be an okay candidate. Lets browse York’s on-line specifications and sales hype!:cool2

    YORK 4-14ET 16” bore capacity (406mm)
    https://www.yorkmachine.com/products/4-14-et-boring-bar
    Sales hype ‘extremely portable’
    Electric powered carriage 55lbs (25Kg) + 4spd Fein motor 22lbs (10Kg) = 77lbs (35Kg)
    Compare: 4-14ET 16” bore capacity to BuMach’s SC1 15.75” capacity ELSA = 41Kg (90lbs) Yorkie is 13lbs lighter

    Sales hype ‘extremely powerful’
    1.2Hp (0.894kw) 35ft lbs (47.5Nm) rotational bar torque; rotational bar torque = power available to shear (cut) the material
    Material Removal Rate (MRR) = CIM (cubic inches per minute) material cut (machined) how much? Ask York...

    Compare: 4-14ET @ 35ft lbs rotational bar torque: direct drive end of bar torque input = NO mechanical advantage (gears-transmission multiplying input motor torque)
    Compare: BuMach’s SC1 ELSA 4sp helical gear trans multiplying 1800watt 2.413Hp. 1st gear bar torque = 1145.39Nm (844.79ft lbs) Note: 1st gear torque spec per LBW

    4-speeds 100, 150, 260, 420rpm; probably NO-LOAD rev’s per minute? Ask York…
    100rpm what is the Surface Feet per Minute (SFM) for each of the 4 spec’d rpms Ask York...

    Extremely Portable & Extremely Powerful 4-14ET: How big is this machine, what are the physical dimensions; length, width and height? What is the mounting distance from the bore’s front surface to the end of the 4-14ET? (I’ll guess 36” +) Ask York spec’s are not available on-line

    Compare: 4-14ET fined by OSHA:usa with mandatory rectangular guards (housing) installed to prevent hazardous exposure to high speed rotating spindle-bar connector and rotating ACME lead screw. More area to advert, ET-EP-EP = Easy Touch, Extremely Portable, Extremely Powerful & OSHA compliant!
    Would look about like BuMach’s SC1 ELSA and approximately the same size! 10.2lbs lighter

    To be continued
     
  5. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Please continue!
    It will be a interesting few days visiting both York and Climax this week.
     
  6. jjimbo

    jjimbo Active Member

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    William I have a BB5000 that is hydraulic drive that I power with the hydraulic system on my service truck, works well for me.
    Hydraulic motors are not that much$$$$ from hydraulic shops.
     
  7. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Line Boring Systems & Borewelders

    AQMD might screw that up.:Banghead

    How many York machines have seen in S. Cali? I’ve never seen a York in person; Les T. (scraper floor guy) bought York a few year ago, he didn’t get much work because the equipment managers are not naive idiots! Yorkie is basically a ‘self-feeding mag drill’ suited for OCCASIONAL usage like TomV.
     
  8. jjimbo

    jjimbo Active Member

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    Most of my work is very remote and as long as it is in the line of work aqmd does not say much. I have not seen Les T. in years. I do know of a few york setups around. They do the job and in some places work better than pass through bars. It all depends on the job at hand.
     
  9. BuMach

    BuMach Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the info, i think a machine needs some weight to get his stifness and his toughness. (Thats also why stationary line boring machines weight TONS.. Just to give them a solid non fibrational base)
    Torque wise i think the elsa has enough although its hard to keep it running cool when you put it to the max.
    When you have a long big bore and you've let it rip it will heat up and puts the safety on. But when you find its sweet spot its not even a problem anymore.
    Atleast it has torque enough to chip the cutting plates..

    Good luck WM and ask a lot off info and try to compare next to each other.

    The total setup length and the distance from workpiece to the machine are important.
    The closer the machine is on the workpiece the more stable and with less vibration the bar will turn. However setting the toolbit and measuring could be more difficult.
     
  10. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Williams Marine,
    Your’ up close and personal touchy-feel the equipment adventure begins. If I wanted to sell you a line boring system; before your visit you would receive a 25 page brochure entitled, ‘Principles of Metal Removal for Boring’ (pdf file via cloud). Demo = hands on borewelding and boring!
    Suggestion, 1st go north York, then visit Cmax.

    Off topic:
    I am old-school, started Aug 64, 28month interruption active compulsory (draft) service; retiring Aug 1st 2016. School, e.g. learning is a continuous process, slide-rule to specialized CAE software. I am not proficient with 3D animation-renderings, but the youngsters @ local engineering uni are willing to take on my projects for experience, pizza and beer. What you learned at an early age, chiseled into stone can end up disproven-wrong etc. Excellent example being the HGP (human genome project), results humans are more microbiological than mammalian by a 10 to 1 factor, yep were more microbiological (bugs) than mammalian. Modern humans are disconnected from earth, shoes, clothes and spending 93% of their time indoors mostly sitting; sitting is the new ‘smoking’ extremely unhealthy, were genetically designed to be constantly moving!

    Cheers
     
  11. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Line Boring Systems & Borewelders

    Hello BuMach,
    Borer Weight, heavier not required, I'll elaborate later
    Notice how the RDU's motor is mounted directly under the boring bar, that places the heaver mass @ lowest position
    Aussie Home Made RDU using Hofmann bars & feeder box AU-ArEng11R.jpg
     
  12. RayF

    RayF Senior Member

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    They aren't quite home made Stan. They are manufactured by a bloke south of Perth using cnc machined components. Bars and feed box are supplied by Hofmann. He makes his own support bearing brackets and quite a bit of other stuff. There are quite a few working around WA and also in the Eastern States. He also makes a different welding attachment. Hofmann welding bar but a different rotating joint and the welding end has some nice mods. Its electric powered independent to the hydraulic system.
    In that pic the motor is at the bottom but the unit can be mounted in any position and the bracket that receives the lead screw can also be rotated 360 deg so the feed unit can be conveniently mounted at any position to suit the operator.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  13. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Stan, what equipment do you use? If I recall you had posted a picture of a Climax with the drive mounted in the center of the bar, is that yours? Why vist York 1st? Which happens to be the way I have my vist set up, even though York rep. suggested the other way. (?).
    This endeavor has been educational in more ways then I thought.
     
  14. BuMach

    BuMach Well-Known Member

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    Oke stanRUS thanks for the info
     
  15. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Ray,
    CNC bloke's RDUs, anodized blue, red would be cool; I am aware of every detail you've described, Thank you
    Filed patent disclosures 93, 1 obvious feature rotatable lead screw mount


    Williams Marine; Ref D8L BB5000 photo; eBay purchase, tooling tests and gave to a friend. I use self-designed machines outfitted with HBM production tooling; kicks a$$! BB5000 weight RDU, AFU and Milwaukee 75lbs bit lighter than York.
     
  16. ETER

    ETER Well-Known Member

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    Williams Marine, Finally got the BRS BOA-M1 on the job, (did several 2.75" ID pipe practice runs first) and I am pleased with the unit. I can see though that the auto feed would be a must if doing a considerable amount bore welding. I have also found that there is quite a learning curve to getting a proper bead to bead tie-in and base metal fusion (still working on that). I had some "ropey" welds on the practice runs, I did not realise how much difference small adjustments on voltage/wire speed would make.
    Regards, Bob DSC05420.jpg DSC05421.jpg
     
  17. RayF

    RayF Senior Member

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    There is a huge difference between different welding machines. We only use inverters with a synergic function. Our remote controls have 10 turn pots for volt and wire feed adjustments. We can alter by 0.1 of a volt and wire at .1 of a metre. A good welder with synergic will compenate for different requirements of current while welding such as oil leaking out of joins etc. We use Kemppi but Miller are ok.
    Good quality wire (S6) and not rubbish that has a wax on it.That will coat your tips and turn welding into hard work.
     
  18. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    1)...use a clamp-on type ground connection 2)...we've modified wire feeder-bore welder for remote control; borewelder rotational speed, voltage & wire speed
    The hardest material is the HAZ not the base metal, each pass anneals part of the previous weld bead (TBW = temper bead welding). Boring hand welds 2nd pass would be the area where carbide chipping occurred, that area was in the transition zone created by slowed cooling rate.
    Photo boreweld looks like your getting the hang of it

    Be safe
    Stan
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  19. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Kemppi is not available in N. America
    We can get Cloos, German units
    BRS recommends Miller synergic inverters
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  20. Williams Marine

    Williams Marine Well-Known Member

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    Six hours with York representative today. Very nice setup, good support from York also, ran through the paces on both the line boring and bore welding units. Had a Bore tech unit to compare with the York bore welder, which was nice to see them side beside. Asked lots of questions and kept asking myself if this would work for me, and does it fall into the "KISS" requirements, that had been recommended on here.
    I will vist Climax tomorrow and will try and post the pictures and videos I took for the experts to comment on.
    Getting close now to either walking away or pulling out the check book.
    Thanks for the input you all have given, was a great help today, found I knew more then I was giving myself credit for.