CAT D3 Project part 2

[AllDodge]

Are you sure it was plastic. I think it would be the steel collar off the line. I don't know any cheap fix for that other than line replacement
If you bleed it right at the injector using the hand pump it sure fire up pretty quick.

It probably was a metal collar and being so old it just cracked. I picked up the new design hand pump filter housing but didn't install it. The new housing came with 5/6 ID line fittings and everything else on the dozer is 1/4. So I have been letting gravety feed the lines and have found that with the tank full it self bleeds clear up to the adapter.

Dodge did you have pump or injecters checked, after seeing the inside of that engine before was just wandering you can take the injecters out and hook them back to the lines just to see if the pump and injector are popping off. Just don't get body or eyes around them lots of pressure coming out so it gets the fine mist and spray pattern when its rite

I have all new injectors and had the pump rebuilt in Louisville at Diesel Injection Service. Before the line crack thing, I took No 1 line nut off and cranked the engine, but I never saw any fuel come out around the line. I then removed the line and let it hang and saw pulses of fuel come out when cranking. Something just isn't right and I'm betting it's on my end.

As before I rotated the engine by hand and after the intake valve on No 1 closed I stuck the pin in the flywheel hole. Kept rotating until in slid in (should be on No compression). Then turned the injection pump until the 3/8 drill bit slid in. Mounted the injection pump on the manifold and to the gear. The manual says something about making sure the fuel rack was in the center, put a special tool on it and a few more things. So now I'm guessing I need to take it to CAT to get it started.

Theone thing that puzzels me is all the soot that came out when I shot it with either the one time. Maybe the diesel is just puddeling in the cylinders, don't know

 

[Old Magnet]

Here is some info on the starter you have...
http://www.newindo.com/pdf/MxTbrochure.pdf

 

[AllDodge]

Here is some info on the starter you have...
http://www.newindo.com/pdf/MxTbrochure.pdf

Pretty cool, Delco and it uses a planatary gear set to increase torque. Not bad, I like it. Thanks

 

[HATCHEQUIP]

Recheck the timing and see if the pins still go in nothing special about that what you might have been reading was what they call spill timing by using it to time engine when the fuel comes out of inj. pump shouldn't need to do that

 

[Cmark]

I'm not sure on your description of getting on #1 TDC firing.

You say you're watching #1 inlet close and then turning until the bolt goes in the flywheel? After #1 inlet closes, you should have to turn the crank almost a full 180deg before the bolt drops in. Is this happening?

Some Cat flywheels have 2 timing holes to allow for timing on either side of the flywheel housing. If yours is like this you could be getting the wrong hole making you out by 180.

When setting #1 TDC firing, I usually look for #4 (or #6 on a straight 6) inlet/exhaust valves "rocking over".

As mentioned earlier, if you have the timing right, these engines should fire on the first turn.

(Stupid question, but you are turning it the right way, aren't you? Clockwise looking at the pulley)

 

[AllDodge]

I'm not sure on your description of getting on #1 TDC firing.

You say you're watching #1 inlet close and then turning until the bolt goes in the flywheel? After #1 inlet closes, you should have to turn the crank almost a full 180deg before the bolt drops in. Is this happening?

Some Cat flywheels have 2 timing holes to allow for timing on either side of the flywheel housing. If yours is like this you could be getting the wrong hole making you out by 180.

When setting #1 TDC firing, I usually look for #4 (or #6 on a straight 6) inlet/exhaust valves "rocking over".

As mentioned earlier, if you have the timing right, these engines should fire on the first turn.

(Stupid question, but you are turning it the right way, aren't you? Clockwise looking at the pulley)

Yes, After No 1 closed I kept turning it and it did go around (clockwise direction facing pulley) 180 before the pin went in. When the pin went in I double checked both valves on No 1 for play in the rockers and they were loose. The engine only has one timing hole on the bell housing and flywheel. I agree with you the engine should fire right up, it doesn't make since.

The thing that gets me thinking about the injection pump setup is I'm not seeing pressure out of the pump lines. I should be able to crack the injector line at the adapter and see fuel come out when I cranked it over. I removed the nut completely and still no fuel. It was only after I pulled the line out of the adapter that I could see fuel come out in short pulses.

Another thing is where did all the black smoke and oily mess come from when I gave it a shot of either.

 

[Cmark]

Yes, After No 1 closed I kept turning it and it did go around (clockwise direction facing pulley) 180 before the pin went in. When the pin went in I double checked both valves on No 1 for play in the rockers and they were loose. The engine only has one timing hole on the bell housing and flywheel. I agree with you the engine should fire right up, it doesn't make since.

The thing that gets me thinking about the injection pump setup is I'm not seeing pressure out of the pump lines. I should be able to crack the injector line at the adapter and see fuel come out when I cranked it over. I removed the nut completely and still no fuel. It was only after I pulled the line out of the adapter that I could see fuel come out in short pulses.

Another thing is where did all the black smoke and oily mess come from when I gave it a shot of either.

My sincere apologies Alldodge, instead of saying;

After #1 inlet closes, you should have to turn the crank almost a full 180deg before the bolt drops in. Is this happening?

I should have said "After #1 inlet closes, you should have to turn the crank almost a full 360deg before the bolt drops in. Is this happening?"

 

[AllDodge]

I should have said "After #1 inlet closes, you should have to turn the crank almost a full 360deg before the bolt drops in. Is this happening?"

It turned quite a distance and I cannot say exactly how far. I moved it real slow inching along turing the crank and holding the pin at the same time (just me).

I'm still thinking it should be 180 though. Intake opens and the piston goes down drawing in air, the valve closes and it comes back up compressing the air. Injector fires and drives it back down

 

[HATCHEQUIP]

Dodge are you saying you cant get it from inside adapter but can from outside adapter

 

[AllDodge]

Adapters

Dodge are you saying you cant get it from inside adapter but can from outside adapter

No, all of this is from the valve cover side of the adapter. I could have had some air in the lines but I had been cranking several times prior. I first loosened the nut



Then with the nut totally removed


Then with the line removed


I cranked it over this morning very short duration with lines 2 and 3 removed at the pump. As it cranked I could see the fuel squirt out of both. I'm just wondering if somehow the pump is remaining in fuel shut off. It just doesn't make since why it won't fire right up.

 

[nicky 68a]

It's a bit of a bugger.It may pay you to get a fitter out to it that knows what they're doing.It doesn't help that it was a non runner when you bought it and you don't have the history.
On another note,I had a D8H that wouldn't turn the motor very quick at all.In the cold You would often need a boost.I had Cat rewire it to no avail.Put some welding cable on it next,but still no luck.It would also need rebuilding every 3 months.Even tried genuine Cat batteries but it just wouldn't go.You could never rellie on it to start on a Monday morning.I had various shops rebuild the starter,even the Cat dealer but no luck.A few years later my fitter at the yard got to see it and told me it was a Delco 40mt....It needed to be a Delco 50mt!!!put one on and no more trouble.

 

[nicky 68a]

Had this totally rebuilt late last year and is currently out working.I allways dread trying to start them after major tear down but this fired up immediately without coughing or spluttering(and it was a chilly morning).
Do you have confidence in the fuel pump overhaul? and your own ability.I don't mean offence as you seem to have done a thourough job but an outsider may see things with a fresh set of eyes.The problem may be obvious.
It should be mobile now and wouldn't want you to undo any of the good work you've done.
Good luck with it.

 

[nicky 68a]

for the record,I don't rebuild any of my machines.I'm not good enough and they are too expensive for idiots like me to mess around with.
Also for the record I have successfully run 11 Cat tractors over the years including 9 D8's not mention a few scrapers and excavator things and can remove and replace plenty of bits and bobs,but as to rebuilding componants.......no way.I leave it to the profesionals

 

[AllDodge]

No offence taken, been rebuilding automotive engines for years on the side. Went though diesel mechanics vocational school in high school. Been working on my own diesels (truck, car and signature listings).

So far as the pump rebuilder, they have been in business for many years and have a good reputation. The new starter is turning the motor, what I would call good, at least as fast as my 955.

I keep thinking back of the soot the engine blew out when I hit it with either. This is a new rebuild, where did all the black oily stuff come from. Maybe it needs to turn over even faster to build the compression, but this to doesn't make since.

Going to order order a replacement injector line and try again when it comes in.

 

[nicky 68a]

I reackon you know your stuff then mate
Did the soot (dust and cobwebs???) come out of the air intake manifold.I don't doubt you didn't check it but it's been off for along time and dust soon builds up in all the nooks and crannies even after you've cleaned them.My fitter allways checks everything I clean out.It surprises me what he finds.
The either thing worries me too.
Do TC Tractors or Nige have anything to say about your problem.They seem pretty good at headaches.

 

[AllDodge]

The soot as I call it was just black oily mess. Only thing oily I can see coming out when fired up would be unburned diesel. If it is unburned diesel then the pressure isn't high enough to ignite it. If all else fails I'll replace the line and haul it up to CAT. Sure wish someone could figure out this here

 

[kshansen]

.A few years later my fitter at the yard got to see it and told me it was a Delco 40mt....It needed to be a Delco 50mt!!!put one on and no more trouble.

That's strange, I just had to replace a bad starter on a D6D with a 3306 and it had a 50MT and should have had the 40MT. Maybe someone got ours switched somewhere! I did replace thew bad one with a 40MT, if not for any other reason it's a much lighter starter to fight with down in there! Plus had one sitting on the shelf.

 

[AllDodge]

Recheck the timing and see if the pins still go in nothing special about that what you might have been reading was what they call spill timing by using it to time engine when the fuel comes out of inj. pump shouldn't need to do that

Hatch, just rechecked the timing and it is right on the money.

Sure took some thinking as to how I could be under the front of the motor with a wrench and be pushing the pin in the flywheel, but got it. Took a 3/8 bolt in the hole after bumping the starter and seeing the intake closed. Took a piece of stiff packing foam rubber and wedged it between the oil filter and the bolt. Turned the engine over until the bolt popped in the flywheel hole. Opened the cover on the pump and inserted the 3/8 drill bit. Marked both bolt and bit, then turn the engine just a slight bit more and neither of them word go back in as far.

 

[kshansen]

The soot as I call it was just black oily mess. Only thing oily I can see coming out when fired up would be unburned diesel. If it is unburned diesel then the pressure isn't high enough to ignite it. If all else fails I'll replace the line and haul it up to CAT. Sure wish someone could figure out this here

AllDodge, does this engine smoke white out the exhaust while cranking over and not starting? If it is getting fuel to the cylinders then it should be puffing white. Have you tried talking to the pump shop to see if they have some ideas to check?

Even if it was way out of time I would expect it to start especially if you gave it a sniff of starting fluid. I know many years back we rebuilt a 3306 and messed up the timing, had it on #6 instead of #1 when installing the pump. It started but did run like crap. Figured out what we did wrong and a a few minutes corrected the mistake and it ran great.

 

[AllDodge]

AllDodge, does this engine smoke white out the exhaust while cranking over and not starting? If it is getting fuel to the cylinders then it should be puffing white. Have you tried talking to the pump shop to see if they have some ideas to check?

Even if it was way out of time I would expect it to start especially if you gave it a sniff of starting fluid. I know many years back we rebuilt a 3306 and messed up the timing, had it on #6 instead of #1 when installing the pump. It started but did run like crap. Figured out what we did wrong and a a few minutes corrected the mistake and it ran great.

kshansen, yes is does just a slight bit of white smoke but not much. Figured it should at least do that but expected a bit more. It started just the one time with either and only for a few seconds but I also shut it down with the throttle. All the black smoke in my shop was pretty bad.

Just ordered the injector line, it should be here maybe by Tuesday, I hope