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C15 Genset

Discussion in 'Generators/Gensets' started by mante, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    I agree with all that that you numbers wizards have posted about HP and arrangements and all that. I don't have access to any of that.

    I must admit I skimmed over most of the horsepower numbers and that is where my fault lies.

    I was suggesting that if the engine did not have a broken crankshaft, and the throttle input could be manipulated to make it lock at 1800 RPM (there are aftermarket devices that do this if the existing throttle input is not "stiff" enough for a generator) that I can't see why an industrial engine could live a long and happy life as a generator prime mover. Running a generator at 1800 RPM cannot be much different than running a sawmill or water pump or rock crusher or what have you.

    I agree that if the engine was built for 475 @ 2100 then on a straight line it might only have 407 HP which is a far cry from what it originally came with. But maybe that is all they need?

    The generator head does not take any more power to drive than the electrical loads that are placed upon it and he said 50% load near the beginning here so it may have worked out if the engine did not decide to come apart.

     
  2. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    mante,
    C15 GEN-SET (50HZ) Media Number: SEBP4324-39
    287-3363 GENERAL AR-GENSET
    S/N C5L1-UP
    **350/550 EKW 60 HERTZ @ 1800RPM. 0.8 FAN RATIO
    286-4916 ENGINE AR-COMPLETE
    20R-0769 SHORT BLOCK
    164-4637 MANIFOLD GP-EXHAUST >SAME AS FFH01045
    284-2777 TURBO GR > SAME AS FFH01045
    252-0652 PISTON-ROD GR > SAME AS FFH01045
    note: ALL C15s 50/60Hz use 16:l:1 compression ratio
    new example 60Hz @ 1800
    http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/21364091
    CAT: Prime – Output available with varying load for an unlimited time. Average power output is 70% of the prime power rating. Typical peak demand is 100% of prime rated ekW with 10% overload capability for emergency use for a maximum of 1 hour in 12. Overload operation cannot exceed 25 hours per year.

    eKw = kW, kilowatts, or sometimes kWm, kilowatts mechanical, refers to the power output from an engine driving a generator set or, in other words, the mechanical power driving the generator.

    To avoid confusion, the electrical output from the generator is often referred to as kWe (or ekW) which is the actual generator output after efficiency losses within the generator. Electrical power is usually measured in Watts (W) or thousands of Watts (kilowatts, kWe). kWe is sometimes referred to as “real power” while kVA (kilovolt-amperes) is apparent power

    For three phase circuits: Volts x 1.73 x Amperes ÷ 1,000 = kVA
    Software Flash File use per engine serial number/AR

    CATERPILLAR GENERATORS >ALL SIZES
    page 7 all C15s @ 60Hz 1800rpm
    https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/LEXE7582-05_Hi-res

    I am checking C18s by serial numbers on hand 'for compression ratio / single turbo apps
     
  3. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Cannot work on CAT without service tool >CAT ET
    C18-WRH00879 LABEL.jpg
    ET loaded on junker 64bit laptop Win7-10 $70.00 (bootleg license) plus newest COMM 3 adapter approx $800.00 from local Cat dealer. COMM 3 also work with Cummins Insite (requires setting in preferences)
    CAT ADEM engine controls pdf
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  4. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Per OP 5 OEM rod bearings and 1 Non-OEM bearing suspected @ #6 journal failure.
     
    mante likes this.
  5. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    OK gents, I think I may have come up with something. The following is not intended to address the crankshaft failure in the OP's replacement engine (some photos from the failure would be nice), but to highlight what would need to be done to make a specific C15 generator set built for 50Hz power produce 60Hz power instead.

    As I suspected when I replied to Birken Vogt earlier, there are two different Cat Serial Number prefixes for C15 generator sets of identical electrical output, one operating at 50Hz, the other at 60Hz. Unfortunately it's not like the old days when everything was the same Serial Number range and you simply frigged around with the settings of a Woodward governor to obtain the required engine speed.

    The OP’s generator set is Serial Number C5L00792, built 14/Mar/2007. This set originally consisted of engine Serial # FFH01045 and generator Serial # L6B06597. When built, the set was designed to run at 1500 RPM and produce 50Hz power.

    The equivalent C15 generator set for 60Hz power is Serial # prefix C5E. I pulled up a set of this arrangement built around the same time. Serial Number C5E00819, built 13/Mar/2007, engine # FSE01040, generator # G6B10842.

    I do not know, and cannot find out, what the difference is between the two generators Serial # L6B06597 and G6B10842. I don't have access to Power Systems information.

    I understand that it is a relatively simple matter to change the output voltage of the generator from 380->400->460->500 or whatever simply by repositioning jumper bars in the generator end. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    Power comparisons of the two engines: -
    Advertised Power 605 BHP @ 1500 vs 619 BHP @ 1800
    Corrected Full Load Dyno Power 625 BHP @ 1500 RPM vs 642 BHP @ 1800 RPM
    Engine Arrangement – 286-4914 vs 286-4922

    Physical differences between the two engines: -
    Turbo – 284-2777 vs 284-2776
    Software – 257-3201 vs 259-6239. Note: The latest (2018) version of the 259-6239 software is 463-3919.

    So in summary to go from a 50Hz (1500 RPM) set to a 60Hz (1800 RPM) set provided the original engine was in good shape would be nothing more than to change the software and install a replacement turbo. In the case of the turbo it’s not as simple as just changing the cartridge, the impeller & turbine housings are also different.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
    mante likes this.
  6. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    ^^^^^^^^ Having said all the above ^^^^^^^^

    As I see it the problem the OP is facing is not simply one of replacing a turbo and changing some software in the engine ECM to make the original engine in the set operate at 1800 RPM instead of at 1500 RPM. He has (and I can't stress this enough) a totally different configuration of engine whose major hard parts were never designed to produce or sustain 600+ BHP, even for short periods. they were only designed for maximum 475 BHP @ 2100 RPM, so even less than that at 1800 RPM.

    To replace all those hard parts with the correct ones would IMHO be more expensive than purchasing an engine of the correct arrangement, or at least an engine closer to the correct arrangement. Refer to my post #47 on Page 3. Note that the list in that post is not exhaustive, it only contains the major big-dollar items, there are probably a lot more besides.
     
    mante likes this.
  7. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Birken, you may be right on the money. However the problem us Cat guys have is that all we have ready access to is "standard configurations" so to speak. When it comes into the realm of customized speed controls, etc, it's a whole other ball game. Also these electronic engines are at such a level of sophistication as regards their controls that it would need someone with far more smarts than myself to figure out just exactly how to control the replacement engine. It would be totally unreasonable to expect a standard Cat software of whatever Part Number to do the job.

    There's a lot to be said for keeping things standard, if for no other reason than it makes it super-easy to get parts in the future when whoever did the modification has long gone from the job site and nobody has a clue what's actually in the engine......
     
    StanRUS likes this.
  8. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    I was aware of seeing that but just the fact that the bearing that failed came in a box without CAT in big letters on it does not, to me at least, explain the failure.

    Now if it was found that the bearing was installed wrong, say blocking an oil passage or it was not the right design for the rod it was installed in that would be a different story!

    While for many reasons I would prefer OEM bearings and parts I'm sure there are non-OEM bearings that are as good as the CAT branded ones.
     
    mante likes this.
  9. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    I suspect mechanics' error, overlooking non-OEM bearing's 'something'; but without photos I am guessing. Non-OEM bearing could have wrong bearing crush; determined by out-of-roundness per design. I prefer non-OEM bearings for many Cat applications> Clevite, now marketed by Mahle.

    Crankshaft journal loading; C15s, C18s, C27-V8, C32-V12 use the same connecting rods, rod bearings and same rod journal sizes; piston pins. IMO, OP engine's failure is not related to crankshaft-rod journal overloading.

    Changing from 1500 to 1800rpm moves torque/hp curve upwards reducing internal loading/stresses; like truck engines, splitting 1 gear or downshifting. Owner/Operator 3406-C-series engine hopped up truckers can't drive their rigs in the rpm as designed, they have to keep the revs up or replace hard parts more frequently. Cat Platinum Kit for 6cyl $28K.

    OP engine: Different compression ratios 'pops out' for me; huge difference 16.1:1< all Gen-Set engines including C18 single turbo and C15 Industrial 18:1. // 18.2:1 is used with C15 on-road twin-turbo engines // Gen-Set C18 Tier2 twin-turbo >1 turbo for 3 cylinders into Y-center section manifold; compression ratio 14.5:1< 'King of the Hill' C18s @ 900Hp/3450lb/ft>1000Hp marine camshaft 332-7303 {1309710} Tier 4 off-road C15,18s use 17:1 compression ratio.

    My last 98 glider Pete-Heavy Haul; KTA700 single turbo, higher compression ratio pistons 14.7:1 used<Cummins part by Mahle with KTA700 semi-hemi (dished instead of flat head combustion surface) industrial cyl heads. Result: frequent burned pistons even with each cylinder exhaust leg monitored with pyrometer. KTA700 won't even fire on all cylinders below 1250rpm >(retarded static injection timing); designed for oil rigs not on-highway trucks. PT-pump: AFC controlled via in cab air switch>off drag truck power>on snap-idle test. Money marker? NO, replaced with C18 by current owner.

    @ Nige,
    Thank you for the excellent summary. Without MTI-web access using SIS trying to compare different engine hard parts or electronics is frustrating. Repowering 988F to 988G Tier3 engine configuration is almost like OP's engine ordeal; I use customer's Cat subscription laptop with MTI-web for researching. All Cat parts except radiator core, some modified, custom hoses and custom built hydraulic pump; mission accomplished. Start with C15-D8T bellhousing for the pump drive,then invent. CARB issues grant$ for weird repower$ for example 824B value $8-15K>$156K for repowering an oil leaking @ hydraulic tank headache. But repowering playing the system is a money maker, LOL

    End of rant
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
    mante likes this.
  10. mante

    mante Active Member

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    I agree with all posts ,
    it seems to me the engine was not from the beginning to be installed at GENSET . But The C15 - JRE07538 it can run at 1800 rpm If it was in good condition and OEM spare parts.
    Tell me guys If I'm wrong
     
  11. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    I'm not the Cat expert but I say it should be able to run at 1800 RPM at somewhere around 250 kWe. (eKw)
     
    mante likes this.
  12. mante

    mante Active Member

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    Yes ,
    Same my Opinion ..... may be more than 250 I think close to 350 eKW
     
  13. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Birken Vogt, your' money/warranty; how many hours of unknown type of operation does your written warranty cover?
    250eKw = 335Hp @ 1800rpm = 977lb/ft gross

    350eKw = 470Hp @ 1800rpm = 1372lb/ft gross >more power than new C15 vehicular-industrial engine designed to run between 800 to 2100 rpm > advertised net/gross horsepower @1800rpm.

    Please Read & Think / Not wishful thinking:confused:
    http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10059394
     
    mante likes this.
  14. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Stan, I should have shown my work a little more.

    475 HP @ 2100 RPM would translate to around 407 HP @ 1800 RPM if torque is completely flat between those two RPM, who knows if it really is.

    You posted https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/c15-genset.74277/page-3#post-779455

    Original engine 668 BHP / 456 kWe @ 1500 RPM (1.46 BHP per kWe which seems normal to me with parasitics and efficiency)
    Current engine [assumed, we don't have this data] 407 BHP @ 1800 RPM divided by 1.46 = 278 kWe.

    Call it 250 kWe to leave some margin for any mismatch.

    350 kWe is full power of the current engine at full 2100 RPM without any losses anywhere, not realistic.

    Is there any documentation of what the JRE engine would produce at 1800 RPM?

    Again, if you direct coupled the JRE to a water pump or sawmill where it was REQUIRED to run at 1800 RPM because the machinery attached requires that RPM, it should be running within spec should it not? If at a little bit reduced power rating from full 2100?
     
  15. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Can it be made to run at 1800 rpm..? Yes it can. A better question might be “will it run correctly at 1800 rpm..?”

    The problem is with your Flash File. The FF that you have installed assumes that the engine is built using the correct internal iron to produce 600+ BHP @ 1800 RPM. Your engine is only mechanically capable of producing around 400 BHP @ 1800 RPM. Lots of parameters in the FF (such as the fuel injection timing) will not match what is physically in the engine. That the engine can run at 1800 RPM is not the issue, it’s how well it will run. My thought is that it will run like the proverbial “bag of bolts”.

    If I can draw a parallel that might make better sense, it’s like taking the electronic control from a 357 V8 car engine from a high-performance version of a certain brand of automobile and without making any iron changes expecting that same electronic box of tricks to control a 357 engine of the same brand making just over half the power, based on the fact that they are “both 357’s”......
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  16. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Birken, unfortunately there is no data on what the JRE engine would produce at 1800 rpm.
     
  17. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    In my above post, I was also assuming he would install the correct flash file/ECM for the JRE engine. Then cobble together whatever governing system would make it run at 1800 RPM. Do we know what sort of variable speed control the JRE engine is looking for and how it works? Operator throttle or whatever?

    I know it sounds hack but it really does work. Aftermarket governors can be set up for direct rack control if that is available to them, or secondarily they can act upon the throttle arm of a variable speed governor. (Or electronic equivalent) (Even a physical linkage to an electronic hand throttle could be made to work)

    At a steady load state, assuming a VSG like found on the usual industrial engine, the "operator throttle" as I am going to call it will be at a certain position and never move. Drop a heavy load on it and the engine might droop back a few dozen RPM, and the aftermarket governor will see it is no longer at 1800 and advance the "operator throttle" a little bit to compensate and bring it back to 1800. Remove the load and the opposite will happen.

    Not nearly as tight as a direct rack controlling governor, but close enough. This was already a "close enough" sort of job to begin with, installing a different engine on the genset. If they wanted full factory everything, then they would have bought the right engine/parts as listed above to make it a factory 1800 configuration.

    If somebody came to me with this kind of job, assuming the engine was not already broken, I would take it, but time and materials only with the understanding that it might be easy or it might be more difficult, but not likely impossible, but speed control might not be 100% tight.
     
  18. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I get your point. The issue with this being an electronic engine is that there is no mechanical rack to control, every input into the engine ECM comes in the form of an electronic signal. Parameters such as injection timing and duration are all controlled by electronic output signals from the ECM based on input signals received.

    Further to that having looked at the electrical schematic for the JRE engine I discovered that it is not throttle-controlled at all. Basically the ECM receives an ON/OFF signal from an external source. Depending on whether that signal is present or absent the engine is commanded to either 750 RPM Low Idle or 2100 RPM High Idle, there is no capacity to set any RPM in between. I can't see any way that even the most sophisticated aftermarket system could get around that issue because there is no pinout for a "throttle input signal" parameter on the connections of the engine ECM.

    As I said in an earlier post, if it was a Woodward governor parameters such as RPM setting & permitted droop could all be adjusted and the governor could be fine-tuned to do whatever was necessary to make the engine spin at a constant +/- 1800 RPM with varying electrical load up to the limits of the maximum power available from the engine.

    Am I the only one here thinking that this thread has the capacity to go the same was as a certain D6C thread did a while back..? Oh Dear Lord I hope not ........ :eek::eek:
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  19. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    NO SIR,
    And that thread wasn't even technical:rolleyes: Birken might become TC Birken; using calculator & hacksaw, hammer-chisel. That D6C thread, IMO was camouflaged spamming:(:(

    Kidding aside, Birken your' calculations; flat torque curve almost match C15 Tier3 18:1 compression ratio, single turbo 657G rear scraper engines @ 337kW/451Hp net (gears 3-8) and 306kW/410Hp net (gears 1-2) rated @ 1800rpm, governed 2100rpm.

    To help you understand vehicular-industrial engine varying on-off load cycles; observe 657s in this short 0:58 minute video. Pedal-to-metal climbing to top of mountain approx 5:30 minutes. I was directing scrapers away from X-mas day repair job that wasn't finished while my helper positioned service truck.


    This THREAD has been educational. The More You Know, The More You Know There IS MORE TO KNOWo_O
    I am finished with thread.
     
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  20. mante

    mante Active Member

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    Ok but not at the first 5 min's ... if the FF was the main problem ..... it will show the with load ..... the main problem not the FF we can say it helped.