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C15 Genset

Discussion in 'Generators/Gensets' started by mante, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I APOLOGIZE FOR SHOUTING BUT IT APPEARS AS THOUGH SPEAKING NORMALLY IS NOT GETTING THE MESSAGE ACROSS TO YOU.
    YOU HAVE TWO PROBLEMS HERE THAT NEED TO BE CONSIDERED SEPARATELY.

    Problem #1 - a broken crankshaft after 5 minutes. Most likely that problem is related to the parts used in the rebuild of engine JRE07538 or to the quality of the people doing the rebuild, or both. Because there are no photos of the damaged parts we can not offer more detailed opinions as to why this failure took place.

    Problem # 2 - the long-term reliability of the engine (measured in months or years, not minutes). That is where the Flash File, and the relation between the FF and the iron inside the engine, comes into consideration.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  2. mante

    mante Active Member

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    Nige thank you and all ..... this thread is helpfull for any guy want to play with and torque RPM
    Like reference ....

    Thanks A lot
     
  3. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Well then scratch off everything I wrote because it is pretty much a useless engine for this application then.

    But now I have got to know, what would be the use of an engine that went straight to 2100? Is there an adjustable ramp time so as not to break things as it winds up quickly?

    And is there an alternate configuration for RPM other than 2100? But I agree with no throttle input, nothing I could do to make it drive a genset either. The only option would be a flash file that matches the hardware but it sounds like even if it exists, it would be hard to find.

    My guess is that the broken crankshaft saved Mante from a lot of other headaches because this thing could never have worked right.

    Find another engine that will be properly set up for this load.
     
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  4. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    We have C27 V-12 engines in our blasthole drills that behave the same way. Low Idle & Rated RPM and nothing in between. I never dug into it too much but I suspect that there must be something in the software that controls fuelling in such a way that it does not permit a rate of increase of more than X RPM per second (where X might be for example 250). So per that example the engine would take around 5 seconds or thereabouts to go from 750 to 2100. That's certainly how they seem to behave in practice. IIRC those engines will also not action a High Idle signal from the cab unless the coolant is above a certain temperature.

    AFAIK the only way to change the High Idle RPM would be with a different Part Number of software.

    It may amaze you to know that when I did a bit of background digging as part of my research into this particular genset I found that there were no less than 27 different Serial Number prefixes of C15 genset engine. That is without counting Marine & Industrial engines, each branch of which has its own range of S/N prefixes. On top of that every S/N prefix of the 27 has a plethora of different arrangements (each one with its own unique software P/N) to achieve certain performance parameters. Multiply the two together and you have probably around 300 possible combinations just in a C15 genset engine. The original generator set that the OP has is one of 9 different engine arrangements just for C5L.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  5. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Those drill engines, when they go to high idle is it spot on 2100? And when they begin to work do they maintain 2100 right on the nose throughout (assuming they are not beginning to lug into torque rise)?
     
  6. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    They go to 2100 on the nose. When you start to load them up they lug down a hair (accompanied with a nice puff of black smoke), but within a couple of seconds they are back bang on 2100 again. If you some reason they cannot maintain rated RPM under load the Underspeed Alarm sounds I think when the RPM is something like 150 below rated RPM.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  7. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    That answered my question perfectly. Sounds like if you could find a file for this JRE that was similar but 1800 RPM, it would drive a generator just fine. Maybe not accept full load in one step or be quite as tight under varying loads but the kind of customer that is forced to cobble together a set in this way is not likely all that concerned about super tight frequency control anyway. Most electric loads don't really care about minor variations of this type.
     
  8. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Finding a needle in haystack might be easier TBH ......
     
  9. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Extra for Mante,
    C15 Tier3 Industrial Engine pdf / with performance charts; bkW and Torque Newton-Metric Curves.
    Screenshot #1 bkW/Rpm
    Using B-rating @ 1500rpm = 449Bhp / @ 1800rpm = 476Bhp <max for JRE
    C15 Tier3 Industrial LEHH4598-01.png
    Screenshot #2 Torque Curves (Newton-Metric)
    B-rating @ 1500rpm = 1560lb/ft (2115Nm)
    B-rating @ 1800rpm = 1312lb/ft (1780Nm)

    C15 Tier3 Industrial Torque Curve LEHH4598-01 pdf.png
    C15 Tier3 Industrial Engine pdf
    https://www.stet.pt/dl/LEHH4598-01.pdf?CFID=01d5933f-e397-4d3a-9fc9-5b87475014a1&CFTOKEN=0

    Assuming Gen-Set original ECM + wiring was used with used JRE (with new rolled in bearings) SO generator electronic control panel could be used to set operating parameters, like rpm, voltage, amps etc. AND OP stated 'ran @ 50% load without vibration @ 1500rpm'; my conclusion; 50% load is max for the available power output from JRE engine. Running @ 1500rpm caused non-OEM rod bearing distress, lost oil film>metal-to-metal contact, deformation-crushing etc. Reflashing ECM with random flash file to increase power output because the engine was struggling @ 50% load/1500rpm. Bumping up to 1800rpm with decreased torque/bhp, bang, bang.
    Similar C15 Tier3 Gen-Set 2007yr

    Mante, read the specifications below. Not possible to operate the Genset as designed with the wrong engine. 250kW approx max with JRE engine; and shortened service life hours
    Used- Caterpillar 400 kW standby diesel generator set, SN-C5E00601. CAT C15 engine rated 636 HP at 1800 RPM, EPA Tier 3 emissions, SN-FSE00785. 3/60/277/480V. Main-line circuit breaker. PMG - permanent magnet generator. Coolant heater. EMCP 3.2 digital control panel. Open skid unit with remote radiator. 175 Hrs. Year 2007. Caterpillar factory worldwide extended warranty for 1 - 5 years at additional cost. Passed load test 6/26/2018. FOB Waukesha, WI


     
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  10. Shimmy1

    Shimmy1 Senior Member

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    I've been holding my tongue about this for at least a week, and now I'm subscribing to the dam thing.
     
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  11. 63 caveman

    63 caveman Well-Known Member

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    Even tho this is starting to smell a bit fishy and the technical stuff is well above my pay grade; I will toss my hat into the ring as well.

    The first question in my head when this started is what type of gen set are we talking about. Is it a industrial set that is designed to run continuous and only took of line for maintenance? Or is this a emergency back up that is asked to go from stone cold to full load in a matter of seconds? From a common sense standpoint I would think that the "hard" engine parts and the run files for thees two different applications would be different.

    As far as the crankshaft failure that would be hard to say from my keyboard.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  12. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    You're correct in that here is a major difference between Prime (Continuous) Power and Standby (Emergency) Power ratings. Standby Power is a rating for 1 hour of operation only and is usually around 10% higher than the Prime Power rating which is rated for continuous round-the-clock operation.

    Hard parts will usually (but not always) be the same between the two ratings, because as Birken pointed out the power produced by the engine is directly related to the electrical demand put on the generator. The Flash File will pretty much always be different.
     
  13. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Cat C15 Gen-Set very similar to the one in video posted above. Same EMDP 3.2 Electronic Controller, located @ rear panel / same basic generator / different radiator set-up.
    OP has not stated what rating they're trying use, standby, prime or continous usage.
    OP replaced the original Gen-Set engine with a Industrial engine that is not designed to power a Gen-Set; lacking HP/Torque @ the required RPMs 1500-1800 to operate as designed by Cat.
    1) We do not know if the replacement engine was 'new rebuilt' or used with replaced main-rod bearings. OP stated one rod bearing was non-OEM. Per
    Clevite-Mahle 40%+ bearing failures are dirt related; dirt from poor rebuild procedures. Non-OEM bearing material; tri-babbitt>OEM type or Chinese Silicon-Aluminum?> hard and overloading causes the oil film to fail, causing metal-to-metal contact> bearing distress> bearing-crankshaft journal failure.
    2) We do not know if the crankshaft broke or just #6 rod bearing failed
    3) We do not know if the OP used the existing ECM-wiring from the original engine (IMO, he did because the engine couldn't be controlled otherwise)
    4) We do not know how long the replacement engine ran / 1-3hrs, 20 minutes; unknown
    5) Op has stated a different ECM flash file (switchable>no such file exist, probably language term difference) was used before failure; "it helped" for 5 minutes. That indicates, they were having problems operating @ 50%/1500rpm, 'OP stated, 'running without vibration', until switching to 1800rpm and 5 minutes later the engine failed.
    6) Op or his mechanic's skills to repair the JRE-industrial engine after failure? Bearing-Crankshaft failure; microparticles can ebbed into piston skirts, scratch surfaces etc, etc. Electronic high hp-torque engines are precision with low operating clearances, as an example C15,18 using a Reman cylinder head shaved 0.000" to 0.020"; requires adjusting cam idler gear to establish the correct gear clearances; requires special Cat tooling. Assuming OP's location; parts-tools are not readily available; example usage of non-OEM rod bearing.

    OT, cleaning parts with solvents; solvents are masking agents, i.e. oil based that trap microparticles into surfaces' asperities (micron surface peaks and valleys) = pi$$ poor engine building technique.
     
  14. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    You mean like OP's 2 uploaded photos of the #6 rod journal failure?
    1 tagged VID and the other tagged IMG. IMG tagged photo of rod cap showing tri-babbitt bearing material. VID tagged photo of upper rod bearing seat showing silicon-aluminum type of built up adhered material. IMO, 2 different rod bearing failures.
    Crappy photo of different tagged photos
    Gen-Set.jpg
    Maybe the fish is a sardine:eek: and OP couldn't travel to see the actual engine failure or whatever. If the VID tagged photo is the JRE engine then the crankshaft might not be toast. Repairable, exchangeable? We do not know for sure if the crankshaft is broken. OR the condition of the other main-rod bearing journals.
    OP asked, 'maybe hours (used engine), non-OEM parts, FF-flash file make 'broken in The crankshaft'? >YES

    OP has adequate information (serial numbers, arrangement numbers) to make a informative decision as to repairing, replacing the engine to operate the Gen-Set.

    Hopefully OP is not located in a country that is currently hostile to US citizens or military personnel and the repaired Gen-Set won't be used to operate weapons systems:( to drive away 'the invaders', LOL
     
  15. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    While we're getting into the technicalities of generator set ratings........ Generator set output is rated to ISO Standard 3046 and is defined as follows:-

    Continuous Rating - Output available with non-varying load for an unlimited time. Average power output is 70-100% of the continuous power rating. Typical peak demand is 100% of continuous rated ekW for 100% of operating hours.
    Prime Rating (Continuous ekW Rating + 11%) - Output available with varying load for an unlimited time. Average power output is 70% of the prime power rating. Typical peak demand is 100% of prime rated ekW with 10% overload capability for emergency use for a maximum of 1 hour in 12. Overload operation cannot exceed 25 hours per year.
    Standby Rating (Continuous ekW Rating + 22%) - Output available with varying load for the duration of the interruption of the normal source power. Average power output is 70% of the standby power rating. Typical operation is 200 hours per year, with maximum expected usage of 500 hours per year.
     
  16. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Pow-Gen Industry can be confusing; Prime = Continuous etc.
    Cat dealer on-line calculator tool. Get a potential customer into a ballpark result before using specialized computer software.
    https://www.holtcat.com/online_tools/power_calculator
    Software to predict energy efficiency, most governments, OEMs...example
    https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/software-tools

    Another Question, does OP's geographical location (country) use Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel? Cat's newer engines are by default ECM programming designed for ULSD fuel, correct me if I am wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  17. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Interesting thread!?

    I have some experience and training on generator sets and actually I believe Nige and StanRUS are saying the same thing in slightly different languages.

    First all drivers, whether internal combustion or electric motors, are rated by duty cycle. Duty cycle is the amount of load that can be carried over a set amount of time. Generator sets carry the highest duty cycles on all diesel engines. If the generator is rated at 1,000 KW and the duty cycle on the engine is rated at 100% then it can run that output all the time. To put it another way an engine with a duty cycle of 40% could run 4 minutes out of 10 at 100% load while an engine with a 100% duty cycle can run 10 minutes out of 10 with 100% load. In reality though that costs a lot of money so manufacturers can cheapen that up by setting the engine up at something less that 100% duty cycle. Trucks for example seldom run more than 40% duty cycle. They can have higher compression ratios and more horsepower to get a load moving, but it doesn't take much to keep the load moving once it has reached the desired speed. This is why you usually can't take a truck engine and turn it into a generator engine. Marine use is even a lower duty cycle than truck use and is why you might see an engine rated at 250 HP in a truck rated at 400 HP in a marine application. So as Stan says the compression ratios between these two engines are a hell of a difference. The ratings Nige has stated above are the industry's way of stating duty cycle for generator sets.

    The issue of hertz or cycles is only related to the speed of the engine because it has to do with how many times the windings in the generator shift polarity in a second of time. It works by how many magnetic poles are in the generator. The generators I worked with on ships were eight poles so to get 60 cycles the engines had to turn 900 RPM. A two pole generator has to turn 3,600 RPM to get 60 cycles. As I recall a 4 pole generator turns 3,200 and a 6 pole unit turned 1,800 RPM. If you want 50 cycles you turn the engine slower. But in turning slower you will affect the output characteristics of the engine. That is why on the electronic engines they remap the operating curves for horsepower and torque when the speed is turned down and you get different serial numbers from Cat on 50 cycle engines than on 60 cycle engines.
     
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  18. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    A generally agree but a generator engine sees a duty cycle just like any other engine. If you don't apply any electrical load to the terminals of the generator, the engine has no load either. So you can still spec your engine to run a particular duty cycle. If it is an electric pump equal to the rating of the engine/generator then 100% would apply. But if it is running some kind of plant with all sorts of motors that switch on and off depending on processes, then it may have a very low duty cycle to the point of slobbering.

    DPF temperature requirements have given us generator people all sorts of fits since it came along. You can no longer take a larger set and move it to a smaller application and just take the penalty of an underloaded engine. You have to add electric heaters that switch on whenever it runs too lightly.

    We don't know the OP's operation so this is all a mystery.

    Pole counts-RPM:

    60 cycles

    2 pole = 3600 RPM
    4 pole = 1800 RPM
    6 pole = 1200 RPM
    8 pole = 900 RPM

    50 cycles

    3000, 1500, 1000, 750
     
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