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C15 Genset

Discussion in 'Generators/Gensets' started by mante, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    Original switchable flash file for 50/60 Hz Cat C15? > For the GEN-SET ARRANGEMENT NUMBER 287-3361 Serial # C5L00792 ??? Engine Arrangement 286-4914 ???

    If the Flash File is correct for the Gen-Set AR 287-3361 (Generator AR 235-1211) and Engine AR 286-4914 per SIS > C5L00792 serial number, that Flash File will not work correctly with current damaged Engine Serial #JRE07538 because of the incorrect piston-compression ratio 18:1 and different turbocharger group, exhaust manifold group.

    Local Cat dealer your area? Have dealer look up additional information using (MTI) Manufacturing Technical Information-WEBSITE.
     
  2. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I'm assuming here (a big ask I know, but bear with me) but I think that when the OP is referring to a "50/60Hz switchable file" he is referring to the electronics in the control side of the electrical generator part of the unit, not the engine.

    See the illustration below. In the engine ECM (circled red) there is a flash file that controls fuel injection, timing, boost, and a whole host of other parameters.
    From the C5L00792 Serial Number for the generator Stan has identified that the original Engine Arrangement for the genset in question was a 286-4916 (the S/N of that engine was FFH01045) and that there are significant differences between 286-4916 and 241-0020 including, but not limited to, pistons and turbocharger. I discovered that the fuel injectors are also different which is not surprising.

    So my point is, what ECM does the replacement engine currently have installed..? The ECM from the original genset engine, or the ECM from the 241-0020 replacement engine..? If it is the ECM from the original genset then the performance of the engine will be adversely affected. It will run after a fashion, but the major differences in iron between the two engines means that it will never run right .........

    Another piece of information. The original genset must have been a 50Hz generator, because engine S/N FFH01045 was dyno tested at 1500 RPM and produced 605 BHP.
    In comparison engine S/N JRE07538 is rated at 475 BHP @ 2100 RPM.

    upload_2018-12-3_7-27-13.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  3. mante

    mante Active Member

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    Hi
    This pic can help for investigation if can go to 60hz
    [​IMG]
     
  4. mante

    mante Active Member

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    Yes,With original ECM FFH01045
     
  5. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Your 1st post..........

    Question - "This pic can help for investigation if can go to 60hz..?"
    Answer - No. The data on this plate is all related to the engine. It has no relation to the electrical power put out by the generator. The 50Hz or 60Hz selection is all controlled in the generator controls, not in the engine. I am not an electrical expert but I always thought that a generator set was configured for either 50Hz (1500 RPM) or 60HZ (1800 RPM) and it was not possible to switch between the two, especially with an electronic engine like this C15. Generator set C5L00792 was built as a 50Hz set and I don't think it's possible to run it at 60Hz without major electrical modifications in the generator end. Nothing to do with the engine.

    Your 2nd post...........

    In my opinion you have major problems. You are trying to control engine S/N JRE07539 (built for 475 BHP @ 2100 RPM) using an electronic control taken from engine S/N FFH01045 (605 BHP @ 1500 RPM).
    I can't say it any other way or put it any stronger - THIS WILL NOT and CANNOT WORK ........!!
    The reason it will not work is because of the different pistons, turbocharger, and fuel injectors in engine JRE07539 compared to what was in engine S/N FFH01045.

    In addition I do not see it EVER working unless engine JRE07539 is disassembled and rebuilt using the correct Part Numbers of piston, turbocharger, and fuel injector for engine FFH01045. There may be other major parts that also require replacement but I have not investigated yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  6. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    mante,
    Answer NO. Engine JRE07538 / 241-0020 AR *using* ECM software flash file for engine # FFH01045 will not run correctly @ 50 or 60Hz.
    Also JRE07538 / 241-0020 *using* original software flash file as 'industrial engine @ 2100RPM-475BHP' will not run correctly to power Gen-Set @ 1500/50Hz or 1800/60Hz.
    ___________________________________________
    mante, I am looking at 2 desktop monitors and typing SIS information from 1 monitor-SIS into this reply below.
    ___________________________________________
    Gen-Set per serial #C5L00792 / 287-3361 AR
    AS BUILT
    Model: C15 GENERATOR SET C5L00792
    ENGINE - ENTIRE GROUP (C5L00792)
    FEATURE CODES
    C15 415/240V 50 HZ PKG GEN L8
    LO BSFC = Low Brake Specific Fuel Consumption
    DK2126 = EMCP 3.2 CONTROL PANEL
    550KVA W/FAN
    STANDBY POWER APPLICATION
    800 AMPS
    5N-9582 = LOW BSFC STRATEGY
    290-6339 = RADIATOR GP
    DK1212 = REAR MOUNTED POWER CENTER
    240-0484 = PANEL GR-ELECTRONIC
    OV-1065 = END USE: GENERAL ELECTRIC POWER GEN
    OP-7824 = DOMESTIC PACK-EXPORT CONTAINER
    OP-9618 = PACK FOR AIR FREIGHT
    PP5586 = 668 BHP 456 GEN KW WOF 50 HZ S
    OK-7108 = 498 KW (668 BHP) @ 1500 RPM
    9Y-8156 = STAMP FOR STANDBY POWER
    254-6314 = ELECTRONICS GP-GENERATOR SET
    note: some items listed left out
    ___________________________________________
    Industrial engine JRE07538 is designed to operate from 0 to 2100RPMs = varying loads and power output requirements.
    Gen-Set engine FFH01045 is designed to operate @ 50Hz 1500RPM = constant load 'with small electronic adjustments' required to maintain 50Hz-1500 caused by electrical usage demands = varying electrical usage like turning on a electric motor, air conditioner etc.

    Gen-Sets are similar to GE electric engine dynamometers that measure torque loading. 'Constant load' = constant torque/hp. *Different piston-compression ratio 18:1 JRE engine with FFH engine flash file, different turbo, different exhaust manifold, different injectors will cause...high exhaust gas temperatures {cracked pistons, damaged valves}, wrong torque/hp output, high/low turbo rpms, high/low intake manifold pressure/boost etc. Shortening engine service hour life OR short run time to failure/damage.

    To resolve/correct the problem will require using the correct engine parts for Gen-Set application per FFH01045 / 286-4914 AR specifications.

    AR 287-3363 60Hz @ 1800 = Emergency KW (EKW)
    Can you change rating from Standby to Prime? I do not know.

    I'll check Turbo info to compare cartridge numbers (FFH=255-5477) and Turbo hot-side turbine numbers (AR ratios).
    Later
     
    mante likes this.
  7. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Stan,

    I've just done some more digging comparing the two engine arrangements. The following major power-producing items are all different: -
    1. Cylinder Block
    2. Crankshaft
    3. Connecting Rods & Pistons
    4. Camshaft
    5. Valve mechanism
    6. Fuel injectors
    7. Turbocharger

    Basically the only thing the two engine arrangements have in common is "C15" marked on the valve covers.
     
    DB2 and mante like this.
  8. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Nige,

    I work on generators for a living although smaller than this size, but not a whole lot smaller.

    Most/all generator ends of this size are dual rated at 50/60 Hz. There will be some minor adjustments to the voltage regulator but that is it. The mechanical difference is that it spins 1500 RPM vs 1800 RPM. This is done all the time on generators destined for different markets.

    I have been following this thread and the question I have is that if he were to put the correct ECM on the existing engine and set it to run 1800 RPM, assuming the engine/ECM has the power characteristics needed at that slightly reduced RPM I do not see why it could not work.

    This assumes that the governor routine inside the correct software for this arrangement could control the engine speed tightly enough to maintain 1800 RPM +/- 50 or so under most load conditions.

    I just don't see how a generator load profile would be very much different than an industrial engine could work with.

     
    mante likes this.
  9. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    All this is way over my pay grade, but I agree with BirkenV, the wrong arrangement/parts is the difference between 1,000 hours and 10,000 hours to failure, this failed at 5 minutes. That has to be something screwed up in the rebuild. The only damage I could see from mismatched engine/program is if the timing was way too early (at low or no load, and in only minutes).

    The question I'd like to know: was this 5 minutes at idle? that is, 1,800 RPM with no load on the generator? What did the oil pressure do in that time? was it primed before starting?
     
    mante, Mark250 and kshansen like this.
  10. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    I'll start by saying that I had limited genset experience and what I did have was limited to some dinosaurs like D379, D398, D399 along with a 3508 of very early version then a little 3306, nothing with ECM's that's for sure!

    So I can't begin to give an opinion on how one or the other of the C-15 engines being talked about would work under load. I'm just having a problem understanding what was so wrong with the engine that caused the original failure in what was claimed to be five minutes running at very low or no load at all!

    This is starting to remind me of some of the headaches I got involved in with a boss who had the idea that if a truck had a dog standing on the front then everything behind it was interchangeable with any other truck with that puppy up front!

    I have the feeling that mante has been boxed into a corner and not getting any real help from management or dealer at his end. I just hope he understands that the various people here are doing their best to help him in this problem
     
    mante likes this.
  11. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    Delmer, I.m typing with one hand in a splint so you beat me to much of what I was trying to put in words!

    I know these electronic controlled engines are much different than say an old 3306 DI engine but I worked on one of those an one of us managed to time the injection pump to #6 instead of #1 and it started and ran for close to five minutes while we tried to figure out why it sounded so sick. Once we figured it out and retimed it right it ran fine with no lasting effects!
     
  12. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    1) Op did use correct ECM on the existing engine; software won't correct for different engine hard parts.
    2) 18:1 compression ratio (current engine) versus 16:1 (used on Gen-Set C15s-I checked) is a major difference; liner ledge will pound out (I machine liner ledges constantly on O/O hopped up trucks); pistons will have damaged crowns letting gases destroy the top rings; leading to massive blow-by; scored liners...list can go on.
    3) JRE industrial engines max HP rating are 534BHP; Gen-Set over 600BHP; large fueling difference from the injectors/software.
    4) OP changing from Standby? (unknown) to Prime would require altering the Gen-Set electronic controls/controller and changing Gen-Set fan to 0.9

    IMO, not economically practical, option partly based upon small contractors attempting to save money purchasing truck C15s for repowering off-road equipment; that will not work...wrong pistons, rods, crankshafts, camshafts etc.

    OT: Hess engineers altered algorithms used on Dossan natural gas engine controllers...Co-generation. Result 55gal drums full of discarded coils-spark plugs; fried cylinder heads, blown engines. Resolving the problem required using German designed engine controller (total ignition system) and upgrading the generator controller.
    My point; very small variations (micro seconds) in operating parameters can cause major engine damage.

    Couple major corporation mangers in my area were 'terminated' for getting involved with Cogeneration; hyped by Calif's go-greener rebate programs. Every honest-dishonest commissioned engine salesmans' dream. Fuel Cells; almost totally free installation, when the 'stack' requires replacement; out of service. Gas-turbines; won't operate correctly @ higher inland ambient temps.
    S.Cal. Gas $20K rebate, Edison $20K rebate to put 2 co-gen engines back service: Customer has $1.7million invested in a system that started out being FREE. My decision, tax write off and collect dust.

    I feel for mante, unfortunate position to be in.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    mante likes this.
  13. mante

    mante Active Member

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    I meant mechanical As 1800 RPM ... the Alternator already done As 3 phase 460V

    Not with original Flash file for engine S/N FFH01045 ... I re-flash the ECM with one for 1800 RPM 60HZ switch able not using the original Flash file .... it should be work normal

    Let us supposes with empty ECM and flash it with switch able parameters 1800 HZ and 1500 HZ .... in my opinion same just I used the original ECM As hardware with different flash file .
     
  14. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Birken, thanks very much for your insight. I held up my hand earlier and said I was not a genset man. My comments are more related to how this plant could be made to operate reliably long-term, not the fact that it failed a crank after 5 minutes, although there may be a relationship between the two.

    Here are the issues as I see them.
    1. The original genset appears as though it was built to produce 50Hz power because the engine was dyno tested at 1500 RPM. To confirm that when I put the Serial Number in to the system the title appears as "C15 Generator Set (50Hz) C5L00792"
    2. I may be wrong, but I would bet good money that a 60Hz genset producing the same electrical output would be a different Serial Number prefix to the C5L of the existing set. That would make it difficult to find service information regarding the correct flash software file to use in the ECM in order to command the engine to run at a constant 1800 RPM, and that's without even considering how to get factory passwords for the software and Interlock Code changes required. Been there, done that, in a previous life and the hoops to jump through are even more difficult today.
    3. The arrangement of the replacement engine procured by the OP to replace the original contains so many major different iron parts (refer post #47 above) I'm afraid I can't see how it could reliably be made to produce 605 BHP @ 1800 RPM when the "donor engine" only produced 475 BHP when built. Added to that, the 475 BHP was at 2100 RPM, so if the engine was required to run at 1800 RPM I imagine the power it developed would surely be even less than 475.
     
  15. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I must be honest and say that I have never come across an engine that had "switchable" RPM parameters between 1500 & 1800 RPM before. There's always a first time though.

    Can you tell us what Part Number of Flash File you have installed in the engine ECM right now..?
     
    mante likes this.
  16. mante

    mante Active Member

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    Not with original Flash file for engine S/N FFH01045
     
  17. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    NO, JRE engine still has wrong hard parts, turbo, pistons etc
    https://www.cat.com/en_US/articles/configurations/ep-genset-ratings/c15-acert.html
    Look @ any of the pdf files. All engines have 16:1 compression ratio.

    mante, is the ECM flash code CAT? OR custom?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    mante likes this.
  18. mante

    mante Active Member

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    Yes, you are right I feel that ,all of you doing the best to help me ... thanks
     
  19. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

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    So generator is modified-rebuilt for 3 phase 460V @ 1800rpm? And you want use the Gen-Set rated as Prime power?
    In my opinion you will need to use Engine AR and ECM software rated as Prime power @ 1800rpm 3 phase 460V.

    Not to confuse you; FFH01-up list Gen-Set AR 287-3363 60Hz @ 1800rpm EKV (emergency rating). Engine 'short-block' is the same as 286-4914 / FFH01045.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    mante likes this.
  20. mante

    mante Active Member

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    No,
    the owner want 460V and it was 400v 3 phase nothing to do with Alternator just AVR change the jumper to 60HZ and Adjust voltage,that all