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Which excavators are made by the same people??

Discussion in 'Excavators' started by iceberg210, Nov 5, 2006.

  1. PETE379

    PETE379 Well-Known Member

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    Sam Sung, you can try looking on ebay from time to time, they always have a lot of cat manuals up for bid. I know theres a lot more of them around but maybe you'll get lucky.
     
  2. mascas

    mascas Well-Known Member

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    John deer

    I dont know for sure but I have worked on alot of Liebhersrs and the engines in them have deer logos on some of the pieces.
     
  3. iceberg210

    iceberg210 Well-Known Member

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    Deere and Lieber have been working together as of late. For example at least some of the Deere track loaders are really Liebers with a new coat of paint, and the same goes for the largest dozer they sell I believe. Takeuchi and Yanmar I think at one time or another were connected. We've got a Takeuchi with a Yanmar engine that looks exactly like a Yanmar I saw the other day in Montana (ok this summer but same thing). Anyway....
     
  4. MKTEF

    MKTEF Senior Member

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    I heard Komatsu and JCB's excavators are buildt on the same factory in England.:beatsme (realy doubt that, but a salesman said so)
    Sharing some common components?

    Jcb and Sumitomo is the same, jcb prodused the Sumitomo for the European marked.
    That deal stranded, and jcb started production on the basis of the Sumitomo. They prodused a copy with jcb marks on.:)
    Sumitomo didn't say anything cause they couldn't prove copy of the drawings.
    Later jcb has developed it into their own brand.
    Making some changes to it, like using their own engines and stuff.:)

    Spend some time in a 210 and a whelled 175 Jcb, and they are good machines.:)
     
  5. drewtam

    drewtam Member

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    Cat and Mitsubishi

    Let me clarify some incorrect info on this thread about Cat and Mitsubishi.

    Cat does not own any portion of Mitsubishi (and vice versa). Many years ago Cat and MHI (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries) became involved with each other. At the time, Japan was a closed country. American companies could only get in the Japanese market if they created joint ventures with Japanese companies. So Cat partnered with MHI and has created various joint ventures (JV) in the following years. Two of the more important ones are Mitsubishi Caterpillar Forklift America (MCFA) and Shin Caterpillar Mitsubishi (SCM). Both started off as 50/50 JVs. Nowadays, MCFA majority ownership is by MHI.

    SCM is important because that is the JV that created Cats introduction into the excavator business. And since then has been a critical part in Cats growth in the excavator business. It was recently announced, in business news, that Cat is intending to buy majority interest in SCM.
    Cat and SCM are highly integrated with each other at the engineering and management level.
    Beside the excavator business, SCM builds Cat designed machines and engines; always working together in a very strong relationship.

    MHI is a very large company and has its own complicated relationships as a part of the Mitsubishi keiretsu. MHI is a separate and autonomous company from all the other Mitsubishi's (eg. "M" Motor Company, "M" Fuso Truck and Bus, "M" Electronics, "M" Bank, etc), but they are all deeply involved with each other as members in the keiretsu. The relationship and culture is so complicated that I find it nearly impossible to keep it straight.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi
     
  6. 68ATractor&Box

    68ATractor&Box Member

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    Your salesman is incorrect JCBs are not built on Komatsus factory in the UK.
     
  7. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    A very interesting thread indeed.

    I have worked for most all of the major dealers in my area and might be able to put in a couple of points I've picked up over the years.

    Case bought either the rights or the entire line of Sumitomo excavators some years ago. That also meant they got Link-Belt's excavator line at the same time. They did not get the Link-Belt crane line and I believe Link-Belt crane is one of the only independant owned crane lines left. The dealer networks were not changed in my area I believe because Link-Belt has such a strong presence in the logging industry. I know for a fact the Case dealers tried to market Case log loaders and failed miserably even though it was the same product with different paint. Dealer support in my opinion was the biggest problem. In this area Link-Belt is still considered a better machine than a Case. Go figure.

    Link-Belt has now aligned with someone else to become LBX or Link-Belt Construction. I have seen some artic trucks in the area but have heard nothing making them any different than the rest. I have seen literature with loaders but have yet to see one.

    International was bought out by Dresser Corporation in the late eighties. Dresser is a conglomerate that was at that time into heavy mining and drilling. They joint partnered with Komatsu for a year or so and then Komatsu bought out the International line complete. International marketed a couple of excavators, anyone remember Yumbo. Enough said about that. International was a very good competitor to Cat for years on dozers and many of their designs are still in production today. In my opinion the TD7,8,9 small dozers were and still are competitive with anything made today.

    Kobelco was tied up somehow with MDI Yutani for years. Dealers had both brands built into logging machines. It was my impression at the time that Kobelco, Mitsubishi and Kato had common links. I know Mitsubishi and Kobelco severed any ties when Cat joint partnered with Mitsubishi on excavators. Cat built its own excavators, the 200 series, since the sixties. Cat was caught completely flat footed when Hitachi and Komatsu hit our market.

    I don't know all the history of the CNH deal but I remember it happened quick. The Case line was stagnant for years and in real danger of going the way of International. Case was owned by Tenneco corporation for years. That was the time of the Case, Poclain and Drott relationships. Case bought themselves out of Tenneco in the eighties. The only real innovation I'd seen from them during that time period was the joint partnership with Cummins in the development of the B series engine. That is the engine that ended up in the Dodge pickups and a large portion of construction equipment.

    If I remember right International sold their Ag lines to Case a little while after they sold the construction lines to Dresser. I don't remember the full story but Agco also became big at that time and it seemed that manufacturers were changing hands like a deck of playing cards being shuffled. It seemed to me the linkage between Case and New Holland was the end result of all the shuffling of Ag equipment and the Construction equipment just got drug into it. If I remember right the Sumitomo deal happened before the New Holland deal so Case got caught handling two line. In our area we have two seperate dealers for those lines.

    Komatsu as far as I can tell has had many joint partnerships over the years but still completely designs and builds it own equipment. Komatsu joint partnered with Cummins to built, I think, 743 series and 855 series engines in Japan. Early Komatsu dozers had those motors for power. They also joint partnered with Cummins to build the K series.

    Terex has been nothing but a giant holding company for years. They have bought and sold manufacturers as they make of lose money on them. I don't believe they have actually designed and built a piece of equipment in fifty years. The closest link to machines for them is the decal they put on someone elses machinery.

    Statements were made as to manufacturers in Japan and their quality. I have come to the opinion that all the equipment made in Japan is done so under government supervision. I do not work on Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Komatsu and Kobelco. To me they are all Japan Inc.

    I've been told they are all financed by the Sumitomo Bank. You might have heard the name earlier in this post.
     
  8. drag1line

    drag1line Well-Known Member

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    Reply to Farm Boy

    Great Job Farm Boy, on explaination of CNH..but can I change one small part and muddy the water more.
    CNH or Fiat did not buy ALL of O&K, but only the 50 ton and down excavators and wheel loaders. TEREX bought the larger 60 ton and up excavators...which now they are negotiating with Cat for some type of deal.
    Kobelco makes the mini's for NH, Kobelco and Case, but Case larger machines are Sumitomo...for now...Case just announced some type of joint venture with Hyundai...supposedly for one large wheel loader???? Can't wait to see how that comes out.
    Some case models in South America are Kobelco's in larger sizes..example the 20 ton
    Case design and NH Dozers are made at the Kobelco factory in Calhoun Georgia. The larger Case dozers are Fiat.
    The MDI Yutani machine was OEM brand of Kobelco, but made by Kobelco and distributed by the old Mitsubishi dealers, as they lost the Mitsubishi excavator line when Cat bought into deeper the Shin Caterpillar Mitsubishi organization and took over the Akashi Factory, which made the Mitsubishi Excavator. Most of these dealers became Kobelco later. Note, In Japan, the Mitsubishi Motor Graders are marketed as Cat out of Sagamihara.
    LBX which calls the excavator Link Belt in the US, but Sumitomo in Japan, is partly owned by Case in the US ONLY. Note, in Europe, the NH 80 ton machine is or was a Sumitomo, but now Kobelco produces a much better machine so I guess that will change????
    Furukawa was, not sure now, involved with Mitsubishi Corporation early and then John Deere.
    In Japan, Kobelco also produced, not sure now EXCAVATORS for Kawasaki,,,who also supplied wheel loaders to Kobelco,,but not now.
    Sumitomo also produced another brand of excavator that I have seen as gray market in the Northwest area..cannot remember the name.
    Massey Fergesson changed hands and became Fermac and produced Kobelco mini's under license in the EU, sold Loader Backhoes to Kobelco, was bought by Case, who had to sell the factory when Fiat got involved and is now owned by Terex.
    Case has had so many excavator manufacturers, that I cannot remember them all. Drott, Case, Proclain, Sumitomo, LBX, Kobelco, ???
    Just to add...Whew!! The European Yumbo excavator was the beginnings of Mitsubishi excavators,,who are now Cat,
    Bucyrus Erie had a joint venture with Komatsu to design their early machines. They can still be seen in Japan as Komatsu/Bucyrus. Yutani Heavy Industries (Back Ground Poclain) was the company purchased by Kobe steel to expand their line, which was based upon Cat.
    Hyundai came from a joint Venture with Kobelco also.
    JSW when they stopped producing excavators, were OEM branded by IHI.
    My Two Cents
     
  9. PETE379

    PETE379 Well-Known Member

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    Dragline, I know Kawasaki makes hydraulic pumps for excavators, but didnt know they ever produced one. What years would that have been?
     
  10. drag1line

    drag1line Well-Known Member

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    Kawasaki

    Kawasaki is a Huge company of which the hydraulic components and gearboxes are just a part. http://www.khi.co.jp/index_e.html
    Consider the motor cycles for example, ships, steel, and Wheel Loaders. http://www.kawasakiloaders.com/
    Like most foreign companies, they are very vertically intergrated than allowed here and Mitsubishi MUCH MORE!
    To answer your question more completely, THEY themselves did not produce an excavator...Probably to not interfer with their HUGE customer base who produce and use Kawasaki Hydrualic components in almost all modern excavators in some form or other.
    Kobelco produced the Kawasaki Excavators for the Heavy Equipment side of Kawasaki in Japan and yes, a few have migrated to North America.
    My Two Cents
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2008
  11. PETE379

    PETE379 Well-Known Member

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    I realize who they are and what they make, I know they make Wheel loaders, I didnt know them to make excavators like you mentioned.
     
  12. drag1line

    drag1line Well-Known Member

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    You know, when this post runs it's course...Wonder if someone will take the time to make a spread sheet on all this? Naw...would be out of date in a week!! Ha Ha
     
  13. lumber61

    lumber61 Member

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    If you want some info on the history of the Construction Equipment I recommend the book "Yellow Steel: The Story of the Earthmoving Equipment Industry" by William R. Haycraft. A easy read and very interesting. In my opinion all the Equipment Companies are in bed together. They are a very powerful industry, that is never discussed in terms of influence or pricing. This is one of the only industries everybody is selling the same product so marketing brand loyalty is the most important factor, especially in the excavator market. All 20ton excavators will dig the exact same hole in about the same time, but people will pay more for name on the machine then the machine. Very smart marketing!
     
  14. Countryboy

    Countryboy Senior Member

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    Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums lumber61! :drinkup
     
  15. CascadeScaper

    CascadeScaper Senior Member

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    I've seen a Linkbelt loader here in WA, it was a sight indeed. I drove by it every day for a couple weeks as crews were rebuilding a storm water retention system alongside my route to work. I didn't think Link Belt loaders existed until I saw that one, I'm sure it'll be the last one I see for quite some time.
     
  16. coopers

    coopers Senior Member

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    I saw two large Link Belts in Kent on my way to Federal Way. :cool:
     
  17. coopers

    coopers Senior Member

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    Excavators that is.
     
  18. drag1line

    drag1line Well-Known Member

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    "CascadeScaper" the Link Belt Loaders that you saw...Deep Breath..Were made by O&K out of Kissing Germany and distributed by Link Belt after CNH bought O&K construction division. Years ago O&K was sold in the US as Trojen, and also as Kobelco before CNH got involved, Now CNH has shut down the over 100 Year Old Company.
    The O&K mining division was sold to Terex...who is now discussing selling it to Cat...per the rumor mill.
     
  19. farm_boy

    farm_boy Senior Member

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    dragline....you are so smart. when I grow up I want to be just like you!!

    smart that is....
     
  20. drag1line

    drag1line Well-Known Member

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    Farm Boy.
    I am humbled in your presence!!
    Just too much gray hair...or lack there of!
    Good Luck at Conexpo!