Roughest 580ck ain't moving!

[packratc]

Thanks for gettting back to me, Alrman. I reviewed post #46. I replaced the bronze bushing and all the seals. Did not notice a groove worn by the seal. I didn't inspect every hole in the converter for cracks. If there was/is one it wasn't readily apparent. So I'll stick with the hytrans fluid is your advice? As to the engine over heating; No, never had a problem before but had not run it for such long periods making it work pretty hard. Incidently, when it's over heated, the hoe has been stationary and the backhoe was being used for digging. The engine was at 3/4 throttle or above. As my hoe does not have a neutral, the manual transmission has to be in neutral when using only the hoe. I know that the torque converter turns all the time. Are you suggesting that the shuttle is over heating and causing the engine to everheat as they're both cooled by the radiator. Or, are you suggestioning that the engine is overheating and causing the radiator to over heat the hydrauic fluid? You know, when you put in new hy trans it's about 20 to 30 weight. When I check it after it's been running it's 10 weight or probably thinner. Does everyone's fluid thin out with the use and heat? What about adding STP or another thickening high-grade oil? I know this would make it take longer to get into gear when you first start it on a cold morning. Back to the other: Are you also saying that if there's too much fluid in the bellhousing that the continual "sloshing" of it by the outside of the torque converter over heats the fluid? Thanks for your continual input. I'm always learning. I'm always learning new cuss words, that is. Packratc

 

[packratc]

Incidently, the engine has 60lbs of oil pressure when started. It never drops below 50lbs. It's only spit out water twice. When the temperature guage gets over 200 we usually idle it down for a few minutes. It drops just about like you would expect a car or truck would. I think I'll put in a new thermostat and radiator cap. That couldn't hurt. Don't really know why I need a thermostat. The heater/defroster doesn't work anyway. It may benefit from a better fan shroud than the stock one or a six bladed fan. Just thinking out loud. Packratc

 

[alrman]

Re overheating - Yes, I was thinking that the shuttle may be getting hot first & then dragging the engine along with it. But, if it is happening when loader is not being used that blows that theory...... replacing the thermostat may be a good idea. If in doubt, boil the new & old together in a container & see if they open at the same time. It helps you to sleep better if you see the old one not doing it's job & you know you have to keep looking for your problem if it is OK.

I'm not sure about the bellhousing oil level affecting shuttle temperature - certainly may produce a little more drag, but whether enough to actually raise temperature - :beatsme
As said ealier - do a check on the transmission temp & see if it is actually a problem.

Re oil - yes all oil will thin when warm. If the hy-trans is convenient to get a hold of & you are happy with the price - by all means use it. And, NO, don't try any additives in the oil, they may cause a problem with the grip of the clutch plates.

 

[jnl]

Hi there, new here. I have a 19?? 580ck paraplegic backhoe that I traded for a year or so ago. The hoe, loader, and the enginge work great, but the shuttle, like many, is a no go. I am going to try and tear down my shuttle next spring. I have already taken the pump plate off, cleaned the screen, installed new seals, and reinstalled it. It helped the tractor move a little at high rpms on level ground, before I didnt have anything. Also I do not have reverse. But any who..... I have a question. In the left pic on packratc post #52, the gear between the clutch pack and the transmission spins another gear below it. Can anybody tell me what the bottom gear and shaft do or go to. The reason I ask is upon refilling the torque tube I got to looking and that gear is half way off the shaft, not being spun by the top gear. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks jnl

 

[packratc]

Are you saying thats the lower gear is halfway off the shaft? Do you mean that it has slid toward the rear? Would highly recommend that you invest in manual. I bought a CD first and it was/is OK. The factory reproduction manuals are the cat's meow. There's a lower jackshaft that you have to remove to take the shuttle out. My manual is out in the shop and I'm too old to remember the the proper name. It's all on this site somewhere. Keep looking and good luck. Packratc

 

[alrman]

In the left pic on packratc post #52, the gear between the clutch pack and the transmission spins another gear below it. Can anybody tell me what the bottom gear and shaft do or go to. The reason I ask is upon refilling the torque tube I got to looking and that gear is half way off the shaft, not being spun by the top gear. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks jnl

That is the reverse idler gear jnl - get it back into place & retained & you have your reverse problem fixed! - Now if only packrat's was that easy....

 

[jnl]

packratc- Yes sir it slid off towards the back (transmission side). im not sure how it came apart. On another note I think the clutches may have burned up inside the shuttle because when I first brought it home, the bolts were loose on the bottom side of the shuttle, where it bolts to the tranny. needless to say, you couldnt keep fluid in it. The previous owner said he dug a small pond with it prior to our trade. So im thinking it has ran for a while without fluid. Would that make since? I recently downloaded a manual from emanualpro.com.... It's pretty good, I think it has 600+ pages. I'll keep looking for a factory reproduction manual. Thanks

alrman- Thanks. That makes since. Cant wait to get it split (I think ). I'm hoping to get it up and going soon. So far I think I have $1350 invested in it, hopefully the shuttle repairs won't break the bank. lol

 

[jnl]

More info. After I cleaned the screen and replaced pump plate gaskets as I mentioned earlier, I replaced the broken clutch pressure gauge with an 80 psi gauge. After I fired the hoe up it pegged the gauge, im guessing it had 95-100psi, and still would barely go on level ground. Thats why im thinking the forward clutches are toast. Am I heading in the right direction or crazy?

 

[willie59]

Now if only packrat's was that easy....

What? And have this literary saga that we've been following come to an end?

 

[packratc]

For jnl:I thought that it had to be reverse but I couldn't bring up the proper name out of they gray matter. Was to lazy to go out & get the manual & didn't want to give bogus info. I think the guage has to be up to at least 200lbs. Mine runs 190 to 200 when cold & after it's run and hours or so it's down to 175 at 3/4 throttle. It engages at about 100 to 125. I'd recommend a 50 to 300 gauge. Packratc

 

[jnl]

packratc- I was able to find a bigger 500psi gauge to do my checks. Now I just have to find the time to check it out. I was wondering how many pages does your shop manual have in it total? The one I downloaded has a little over 600 pages. Its a very good manual. (I think). Im just trying to see if theres a better one out there that would be worth the mula. Thanks

 

[packratc]

JNL, I think you got thee max. I think mine's about that length but it's in hard copy. It wern't cheep! Hope your 500PSi guage is calibrated in small enough increments to read. Mine's piped into where the regular stcok dash guage went. Good luck, Packratc

 

[Keithw]

packrat, I read this whole post, I felt your pain...glad you got it working...I have a ole 480B that looks about like yours

 

[packratc]

Thanks for the sympathy, Keithw. We're digging pretty good now. Fixing leaks in cylinders, blowing old hoses, etc. That's the stuff you expect. I gotta tackle the leaks at the spindles of the backhoe. Haven't addressed the over heating yet. It hesitates going into reverse when it warms up but then pulls good. Trying to get a little work done before winter really hits here in Tennessee. Packratc

 

[Keithw]

That is my next repair packratc, my boom cylinder seal seeps constantly and I can't use my hoe until I fix it. The other problem is all of my cylinders have rust pits on the rams

 

[packratc]

Keithw, I feel your greasiness. I'm convinced that one spends the rest of his days fixing leaks on these ol hoes. I was lucky last year and able to buy four spare cylinders for $30 each. I've got a bucket cylinder to put on and my dipper cylinder is leaking. Just rebuild a swing cylinder this week and replaced one blown out hose. You know that when you fix one leak the pressure the system was losing at that leak is restored and builds up the pressure on all the other weak places. In my Case I have replaced the hydraulic pump so I hope I'm at prime pressure. Oh, I also had a metal pressure line welded up this week. Today we ran the hoe about 2.5 hrs and the hydraulic line manifold at the base of the hoe sprang a leak. The leak is right at the junction where the lines are welded together. I'll be lucky if it is thick enough to take a weld. But, a bit of encouragment: Everything I've fixed on the hydraulic system as made an improvement. I only have a 12" & a 24" bucket. I'd kinda like to try a 36" as I think this old girl would handle it now. BTW, I think there about four different cylinder kits for each of the cylinders on a model 33 hoe. They'll ask you right away if you have a one piece or two piece cylinder. Just saying, take your serial number and maybe the cylinder when you go to buy the cylinder kits. It might save you a trip. Good luck, packratc

 

[Keithw]

I just started taking apart my boom cylinder yesterday and couldn't budge the gland nut so it is still waiting for my next attempt. wow, $30 a cylinder is a steal...around here, more than likely I will have to take the worst of mine to to the local hydraulics shop where they cut off the end of the cylinder and re-weld it onto a new cylinder ram. Supposedly that costs around $300. I tried taking a dremel tool with a brass brush tip and smoothing down each rust pit to see how well that works and it is a useless endeavor as far as I can tell, probably made it worse as the chroming was wore off a bit around the rust pit itself.

 

[packratc]

I've been lucky so far as all my glan nuts have been relatively loose. I'm sure I'm going to have to make a tool pretty soon, or buy one. Incidently, the last one needed a punch in one of the wrench holes to convince it to loosen. I'd try a 5 inch pipe wrench I had one or could borrow one. Sounds like the pitting you're grinding on is too deep to fix. I've wondered if some real good epoxy glue wouldn't do it for a while until a guy found a used cylinder. It'd be interesting to try. Good luck, Packratc

 

[chase546]

Hey Packratc, How about and update?

 

[packratc]

It's hard to believe it's been so long since I've been on this great site. MY old computer crashed & I lost all my contacts. My old 580ck still is unfinished. We used it for probably 50 to 70 hrs last year. The hesitation going in between forward & reverse is still there and quite annoying. It's best to use it entirely without the "clutch" & it's go into gear pretty good. It's been sitting for some months due to leaks. I've got another (this is the second) crack in the pipe manifold that bolts to the boom & the boom cylinders attach to it. I've had one crack brazed up in it and it has sprung another. I'd buy another of those manifolds to keep this from happening again & again as I think it will. It's funny that I got this post today as I started the beast up yesterday to get warm to check the antifreeze. I used the bucket to move some firewood for a weeny roast last night. Things to fix on the hoe are one, maybe two cylinders to fix or replace, fix two spool controls for the hoe that have always leaked, fix one steering cylinder that has developed a leak, put a grill in it, & straighten the right loader arm. All these things should have already been done but once I got it useable I had to put it to use. Thanks for asking, chase546. I'll check in more often.
I still don't regret buying this old hoe. She's been a money pit but I've learned a lot, gotten a lot of work done, hope to do a lot more, & have really enjoyed this site. Packrat