Roughest 580ck ain't moving!

[sleepyhollow]

good luck freind !!! I think I finally have mine beat. I dismantled the clutch preasure releif in the shuttle control valve and the other preasure releif located next to the shutle control valve. Both were seized up. I cleaned and polished both and put it all back together, added the fluids and started her up. I let it run for 15-20 minutes to circulate the fluids through out and bleed out any air. Finally I tried to move it. I was pleasantly surprised when it took off with out hesitation. Backward and forward like a raped ape !!! Hopefully my troubles are over.......... Sleepyhollow

 

[packratc]

MMM! Good to hear of your success, sleepyhollow. I've never witnessed the horrible violence of a rape upon an ape. Surely it has to be extremely violent and upsetting to both the ape and the viewer. The very image has me calling my VA shrink and hoping he'll increase my meds. The only way I could understand such behavior is that if the ape happens to be a very good operator. Good luck to you and your ape. May you dig many hoes together. I might advise you to dig a hole and bury any evidence that the animal rights folks could get ahold of. As for me, the shuttle is on the workbench, which in my case is a hospital guerney. I feel like a real operator when I'm working on it. Am looking into some issues and will try to learn how to post pictures again so I can share my pain and stupidity with the group. Packratc

 

[jdm]

Packratc I admire your tenacity and sure hope you get that rascal figured out soon. I have been using mine to build some water control structures the last couple of days and think about you about every time I shift it.

 

[packratc]

,,,,

 

[packratc]

, Well, I uploaded 6 photos of Chico and I doing the "air test" on the 580CK. If you start at the top and if I loaded the same way I took them with my Iphone, you should see the shuttle in different positions. The first should be without air and then with air and the shuttle moves to squeeze the clutch pack. Then Chico's finger points to the hole that we put the air into. Keep in mind that the front clutch pack is the reverse gear. For some of you all that have been through this debacle with us you 'll understand. After were rebuilt the shuttle we put the air test to the shuttle via the holes that slide into the torque tube. The test you're seeing here is putting the same test through the passages in the torque tube that lead to the main shaft. In the hoe, of course, this is hydraulic fluid that is directed by your flow control valve and is changed from foward to reverse via the control at the left of your steering wheel.

 

[packratc]

Since we had foward gear and no reverse we wanted to see whether the movement of the piston to squeeze the clutch packs, foward & reverse, was the same. Maybe you can tell by the pics that we discovered that the movement was a lot more to the rear (to the foward clutch pack) than to the front (the reverse clutch pack. We deduced that the reverse clutches were not be sueezed together enough. We then took it apart following the service manual. We took of the three sealing rings that seal in the torque tube. We then removed the bearing that rides in the torque tube. What we found was that the thick thrust washer had ridden foward and the thrust bearing (which is only 1/16th in. thick) had gotten cocked and caught on the lip that the thrust washer stops at. Probably the first time we put it in gear the pressure squeezed the cocked bearing and bent it so it would no longer lie in place. This added to the length of the reverse clutch pack and is why we had no clearance (.025 to .045) between the shuttle and the transmission main shaft. You got all that? I may have missed something or misnamed something. If I did, let me know, so we can correct it. Next is lessons learned! packratc

 

[packratc]

I've seen written and illustrated somewhere, maybe the manual, that it isrecommended that you use a string or wire to tie the ends of the shuttle together while you transport it between the workbench and the installation in the torqe tube. It was probably at that stage that one of us let slack get in the assembly and the thrust washer and bearing got out of place. When I had no clearance at the transmission main shaft I should have stopped right then and taken it back apart. As I've learned since then, nobody has ever put one together (that I've talked to) that didn't have clearance and the require installation of shims. So now I've ordered a new thrust bearing and washers and a couple of gaskets. Parts man at the dealership said they come as a package only for about $100. He says that is for three thrust bearings. I think it's just one with the two washers. One must remember that there are two sets of thrust bearings in the reverse clutch back and only one in the foward gear clutch pack and they have different thickness of thrust washers. My parts won't be in until the middle of next week and then we'll try this assembly trick again. I apologize for the length of these posts but I'm hoping it'll save someone in the future. Packratc

 

[packratc]

The next day I reviewed my long posts of yesterday and I realize now that you probably can't tell enough from the pictures how much movement there actually is there to be seen. I really don't think that the middle of the shuttle moves a total of 3/4's of an inch, maybe an inch, for its total movement from complete pressure on one clutch pack to the other. My photos would have been more telling had I held the camera (Iphone) in exactly the same place for every picture. Thanks, Packratc

 

[packratc]

Guess I should be ashamed of myself for how long this project has taken. And it still goes on. And life has gone on in between it. Let's see: First time I put it back together we had not held the shuttle together tight enough and one of thrust bearings and washers had seperated, got cocked, resulting in no end clearance at the transmissin mainshaft, and the thrust bearing was bent. We had no reverse. Took it all back apart and fixed it. All back together and still no reverse. Took it all back apart and found that we had broken the middle locking ring on the shuttle mainshaft when we put it back together. (This is one of the three rings that go into the machined bore in the torque tube.) Put it back together but this time, only enough to get it running and put it in gear. At first we had no reverse. Chico was on the seat and I had started the machine by shorting out the starter.No need in wiring it all up to check it all out. Man, his shoulders slumped and he was shaking his head back and forth. I started playing with the linkage and the tires hesitated and turned a little backwards. When I put it in gear by hand at the control valve where I could feel the detents, it went into reverse. We had backed out the stop screw when trying to adjust it previously and the hand control pulled the valve too far out. So, we now have foward and reverse. The pressure meter read almost 200lbs and dropped when you pushed in the "clutch". Let the hoe down and it moved back and forth with just a little hesitation going into revese. Then we put the frame back together. I'll have to go back and run the pressure tests at the valve and see were we are. I've forgotten the numbers. Still some problems. See next post. packratc

 

[packratc]

Hydraulic fluid drips out of the bellhousing at a fast drip. We had put in another brand new gasket. We left off the bottom half gasket. Back when we built the engine, while in the frame, the engine gasket kit came with a gasket for the bottom of the bellhousing. We used it then. When we took the torque tube off we got the full gasket at that's what's in it now. Is the thing getting too much fluid in the bell housing? I've never fooled with a machine that has a wet bellhousing before. The way I see it, the fluid level in the bellhousing has to be level with the reservoir level? Is there some way that it can pump too much fluid into the bellhousing? Hope you all have wise words of wisdom. Thanks, Packratc

 

[alrman]

Reverse! Finally some light at the end of the tunnel! :beerchug
Don't be ashamed of how long this job has taken you packrat, what you have done, without any real experience, it's a credit to you & Chico :thumbsup
Money doesn't grow on trees & you can only do what you can, in between all the other projects & duties you have.

How much oil do you think is in the bellhousing? Do you think it's above the trans level or below? Where is it leaking from? Bottom, side, all round? Did you use sealant with the gasket?

 

[packratc]

I'll have to check again tomorrow. I think Chico said it was coming out near the bolt hole on "his" side, which is the left side. I'd say that was half way up. Can I take out the timing plug and see if it comes out there while running? Drip comes from the bottom but it's seeping down the side. I'll take photos. Want to say this: Before putting it together the last time we did the air test again. It seemed like a lot of air was coming through the mainshaft like it was leaking past the rings in the torque tube. But too much leakage wouldn't let it go into gear. A mechanic at the dealership said you couldn't tell much by that. What I'm getting at is there any way it can be pumping too much fluid foward? Good to hear from you, Alrman, Thanks, Packrat

 

[packratc]

, I hope your seeing a photo of the leak at the bellhousing. It seems to be coming out of the corner where the casting that bolts under the oil pan. I'm struggling for the words to name the arms that come back from the front axle to stabilize it. In the photo you can see in the corner the new gasket, kind of a triangle of it. And you can see the fluid begining it's course down the bellhousing lip to fall off at the bottom. I'm wondering if I can take the casting down and seal it. The other leak it at the lowest bolt of the starter. Suggestions? (Other than having my manual in front of me when typing messages so I can properly name the parts.)Thanks, Packratc

 

[alrman]

packrat, I really don't know what to suggest for you.......but here goes. Of the CK / B models I have worked on I don't recall that much oil being in the bellhousing .... if any at all.
I have just gone through this entire thread & most of the attention is focused on the shuttle & very little on the convertor.

Can I refer you back to page 4, my first post. While it was apart, did you look closely at the main convertor housing, at each 5/16" bolt drilling to be certain none were cracked?

Did you end up replacing the bronze bushing in the hub? (#9)

The seal rings (#7) were they replaced & was there any wear in their sealing area?

On page 3 post #39 you mention oil coming from holes at the convertor flange area, what did that look like on your re-entry effort? I know the manual does not state it but it may be a good idea to seal that flange with some loctite 515.

If there is meant to be oil in the bellhousing (as some CK's supposedly were....) it would logically have to be at the same level as the shuttle, & there must be some type of gallery/passage for the oil to pass between the two of them, or else the bellhousing would fill to the top & begin to pressurise.........I can't really advise you on this, but this seems logical to me & you have the tractor to look at & I don't.

Hope this helps ol mate :drinkup

 

[packratc]

Thanks for the response, Alrman. I replaced all the sealing rings in the torque converter and the shuttle. I also replaced the large bronze bushing. I was concerned about that bushing as the old one was like 1.5 inches wide and the new one only 1 inch wide. I had the parts man check it for dimensions and they were for 1 inch, evidently a replacement part. I remember thinking that the small bolts had fluid on them that at first looked like it had come through the converter but we then decided that it might be just drippings. Am I interpreting your questions and comments as that your thinking that there's fluid coming through the converter main shaft and over filling the bell housing? Or that fluid is leaking out of the converter and over filling the ball housing? Like you, I would think that the fluid level would only be that of the torque tube level and remain there. Packratc

 

[packratc]

I went back and read your post #46. Only way to check it is too spit the tractor the third time. Right now, with the fluid checking low, the thing goes into forward firmly with a jolt. It hesitates a little going into reverse, almost like it needs to pump more fluid to go into reverse. The hoe is not on it so can't check to see if it has pushing power. Pressure gauge goes almost to 200 in forward but only about 125 in reverse. I noticed this morning that it went almost to 200 in reverse when the fluid was cold. As far as driving the hoe around the pasture, if there is no slippage, one could operate the hoe just fine. It just leaks the heck out of fluid. packratc

 

[willie59]

I must admit I've never worked on these components of a CK, so I can't offer any advice. But the thing that puzzles me, that gear that's circled in alrmans diagram above, that gear drives the shuttle pump. If there were no oil in the convertor housing, or not supposed to be oil in the convertor housing, then what would lubricate those two gears meshing together? Just a thought.

 

[packratc]

Good to hear from the Eastern neighbor. You mentioned this early on, Willie59, and I'm pretty confident that their's supposed to be fluid in the bell housing. I think it's been mentioned that the starter requires oil seals to prevent damage by the hydraulic fluid. When I replaced my starter I just got a rebuilt replacement. I need to call the rebuilder, in Nashville, and see if they have the seals for the starter. Thanks for the input as it's always welcome. I need all the help I can get with brainstorming on this project. Packratc

 

[51kw]

It will definatly leak thru the starter if it is not a sealed starter.

 

[CasIns]

Hi Packratc. Did you use sealant on your gaskets? On my 580b project the service manual said to use gasket sealant on the torque tube gasket. Don't know if this could explain that much of a leak though.

Also, the bellhousing is supposed to have fluid in it. It did in my machine, and I've confirmed that this is normal with several people. It gets filled from the shuttle area and has a wall to hold fluid up by the converter.