Roughest 580ck ain't moving!

[packratc]

Chico was running the hoe & digging in a large pile of dirt, I guess with the bucket and clutching the shuttle to get the bucket into the pile. From the looks of the dirt behind the wheels it was pushing pretty good, enough to spin the tires as it pushed against the dirt pile and then it just quit pushing. The lever would do nothing. I was on the tractor and drove up to it and saw the new fluid pouring out of the bell housing (Looked like it was coming out of the bottom but don't really know.) The other thing that was suprising as it was coming out of the return line. It might be the pressure side. The line that's closest to the rear and goes into the valve body that the shifter actuates the rod to change directions. Don't know how long it had been pouring fluid but it was empty. Put fluid back in it and it drained right back out of the bottom of the bell housing. Like I say, I think it was coming out of the bottom. It was pouring but it might have been out of the top and running down. We didn't even get it started. Now, let me say this: When we put the brakes back on they probably weren't adjusted right as the pedals weren't anywhere near level. The thing drove the same except that the "clutch" now disengaged at the very top of the throw. It was like you had adjusted the clutch rod on a standard dry clutch. Seems like I remember reading somewhere that the brake pedals and clutch have some interaction. Am wondering it things were working against each other and it blew a gasket. HELP!!! Anybody got any suggestions? Thanks, Packratc

 

[bowen]

Chico was running the hoe & digging in a large pile of dirt, I guess with the bucket and clutching the shuttle to get the bucket into the pile.

This may be an interesting thread.
I have been wondering what problems might arise from incorrect use of the clutch, and can you actually break something like this.
Does the 580CK have the same Borg Warner design like the 580SE?

 

[packratc]

Thanks for the interest, Bowen. I don't know anything about the Borg Warner design or any other. I wasn't watching him when he was using it but I had noticed that he used the clutch a lot more than I ever had. I generally used it just to start off with or changing gears and used the shuttle to go back and forth. But then again I thought he was going to dig into this large pile of dirt, about 12 ft high, that had been there for about 5 years, with the hoe. We'd been moving the dirt before and had dug onto to it first and then moved it with the loader. He used to run a late model hoe for the local gas company. I guess he was used to whatever he did there. He was on it as he's a better operator than I am but he does tend to run equipment faster than I do. But then again, I may be more cautious as I'm paying. The hoe may have to be parked for a while as it may be more expensive than I'm able or willing to put into this year. Uncle Sam just took a sizeable bite out of me this week too.Packratc

 

[willie59]

Ok pack rat, I take it your CK is a torque converter model with power shuttle shift as opposed to manual clutch model with manual shuttle shift? If so, we really need more info of where the oil is coming from. The only holes that should be in the bottom of torque tube should be drain holes. There is a drain hole in converter housing, should have a plug in it though, although someone may have removed the pipe plug. If it's leaking oil from that hole, likely a failure of torque converter, converter o-ring, or shaft seal rings, would require splitting tractor to repair.

Here's a few documents about brake and shuttle (clutch) pedal adjustment.

 

[packratc]

Thanks, Willie59. Good to hear from you. When I got to the machine he still had it running and the shuttle control would have no effect, foward or reverse. I right away noticed that fluid was coming from the metal line, the rear metal line on the left side of the, what I call the control valve. In your figure 6 that shows the cam adjustment for the flow spool, it would be the right or rear line in that figure. I haven't looked it up to see if that is the pressure or return. But the fluid was coming out like mad around that line. It was also coming out at the bottom of the bell housing pretty good. It's always leaked there but the leak had really increased. I had him cut it off and checked the fluid level. There was none showing on the stick. The metal line was not real tight but it was not tight either. It had never leaked before. Got the funnel and put in almost three gallons and noticed it running out of the bell housing in a steady stream. I put a 5 gallon bucket under it as it was brand new fluid coming out. We had just filled it with almost 6 gallons about an hour before. I had driven it and it had done fine, but I had not worked it. I'd just moved it and picked up a few rocks out of a new garden spot. I don't really think it will hold enough fluid long enough to move it to the shop. I know I should replace the filter, add fluid and check the "clutch' adjustment. The fluid coming out around the line really confuses me. Right now I'm of the opnion that the torgue converter broke. Digging into a hard dirt pile with the front bucket and the engine revved up and then "clutching it" to get to dig, I think would be like continually putting an automatic transmission in a car from neutral to drive over and over. Please don't let my guessing sway your opinion. I need your expertise and opinion without being biased by wild guessing games. I'd just be real suprised if this can be fixed just by taking the top off the torgue tube and replacing gaskets and springs. Thanks again, Packratc

 

[willie59]

Are you saying oil is coming out drain hole in bottom of converter housing? Is it coming out with engine running, or with engine shut off as well?

 

[packratc]

Willie59, I went back and read more thoroughly your info about adjusting the brakes and clutch. I had said in the earlier post that I knew the brakes were not adjusted and that the "clutch" petal released differently than it had before. Could these maladjustments have caused all this mess? Thanks again, packratc

 

[willie59]

Well, it seems there are a couple of issue in play here, hard to say if they're related at this point, but I think the oil leaking is the first thing that should be addressed.

 

[willie59]

Those lines connected to the shuttle clutch control valve go to the filter and oil cooler, they are under pressure.







You gonna answer my question about oil leaking from converter housing in post #6???

 

[packratc]

Sorry about the omission, Wilie59. It's a little after 6AM so I haven't looked this morning to verify, but I guess you consider the foward oil drain as being in the torque converter area. When I last drained it I took both plugs out and drained them both. The steady stream of oil which I witnessed the other day was coming from the joint of the bell housing and the rear of the motor. Seems like I put a gasket there when I reinstalled the oil pan a few weeks ago. It's always dripped from that spot, a little bit. The drip was and is now hydraulic fluid. The only leak from the engine is a small one at the valve cover. I had not realized that the front drain plug was the torque converter, what I would call the bell housing, drain area. I know you can't drain the converter on these things. One more thing, it's always leaked pretty high up on the seal between the engine and the "bell housing." maybe I ought to try to fill it back up and make sure the leak is coming from the bottom and not all around the housing. This may sound stupid, but has anyone ever tried to loosen the bolts and lingage to seperate the engine and torque tube to replace the gasket without splitting the tractor? Thanks, Packratc

 

[willie59]

Ok packy, I've had to do some study on this machine, I'm not a CK or B expert by even the slightest stretch of imagination, clueless would more appropriate, so it's hit the books. From what I can tell in the service manual and parts pages, there is a gear mounted to rear of torque converter that drives the shuttle pump mounted to the underneath or front top cover, the cover where the shuttle control valve is. This pump would be located inside the converter housing area of torque tube.

Since you have a gear on converter driving a gear on the pump, there has to be oil inside the converter housing to lubricate those two gears meshing. But it's likely a static level, level maintained by a hole connecting converter housing reservoir to remaining torque tube reservoir. If this is all correct, drain plug in bottom of converter housing should be in place, no open holes should be in converter housing, gasket between converter housing and engine block should be intact, and the machine would use a sealed starter.



This view shows the gear on torque converter that drives shuttle pump,







This view shows the shuttle pump mounted underneath front cover. It drops in area of converter housing shown by arrow,







It would really be helpful if you could post a pic of just where you have a leak at converter housing.

 

[packratc]

Willie, your already a genius! I've been wondering why there was fluid in the bellhousing, how much was in there, and how it was supplied. I also did not know, hadn't tried to figure out, what drove the shuttle pump. I've not seen any of this as this is my first backhoe experience, but I've read and seen some diagrams. You'll get the pic of where the fluid is departing the hoe forthwith. Thanks, Packratc

 

[willie59]

Genius? LoL, no, just a legend in my own mind.

 

[packratc]

,,. These pics should be the dirt pile, like you're interested, that shows the marks in the hard dirt of digging with the bucket and "popping the clutch." That led to the drip that had been a stream into the 5 gallon bucket I put under it. The fluid was about an hour old. I saved about 1.5 gallons out of 6. That's the cheap stuff at $35 for 5 gallons. If I did this right this time, the last pic should be of the lines
that go back to the control valve body. The one on the right (rear-most) was squirting oil like it was 10 cents a gallon. How did it do that? Is the valve messed up too? Packratc

 

[packratc]

Hey Willie59, I had to take 10 shots with my I-phone to get that drop about to drip off the old hoe. You might also note that I have learned how to rotate pics so they come out right-side up. (That makes no sense. If the right side were up it would be on the top.) I guess you'll have guess what I mean. Thanks for your time with the research and all. Packratc to Super Moderator, out!

 

[willie59]

I haven't worked on one of those tube line fittings like that before, kinda looks like some form of compression fitting, could be something wrong with fitting, or could be the tubing is cracked inside fitting. Removing that tube line and fitting should reveal what's causing the problem. And it's likely the fluid dripping off bottom of converter housing is oil running down side of housing from leaking fitting.

Those tube lines carry the oil pressure to work the fwd/rev clutch packs in the shuttle, pressure would be between 275 and 550 psi depending on engine rpm. The shuttle pump draws oil from torque tube sump, pumps oil into the shuttle control valve body. The oil then leaves the shuttle control valve via the tube on the left in your pic, it runs to the oil cooler in bottom of radiator. Oil leaves the oil cooler and goes to filter, then returns to shuttle control valve on the right in your pic.

If you had a serious oil leak anywhere along this path of oil flow, it would likely affect operation of fwd/rev clutch packs.

 

[packratc]

I took the fitting off after I saw the fluid coming out of it. It has a compression ferrell. Looked at it pretty good and it all looked fine. I just put it back together. I'll take it loose and look again. This is a pretty long way from the leak at the bottom of the bell housing. I didn't see any trace of fluid between there and the bell housing. It's supposed to rain here tomorrow but if I have a chance I can look it over again & remove the whole line and air-pressure test it. Is there any position that the rod that redirects the fluid in the valve body can be that would make the fluid "back" up and create undo or backward pressure on that fitting? Packratc

 

[willie59]

Those tubes are "under pressure" packy, unless you have the clutch pedal depressed, then fluid is dumped back to sump. Check your tubing closely, you could have a crack in the tubing, happens often with compression fittings.

 

[packratc]

One more thing, Willie59, I think I'll pick up a new filter tomorrow. I wonder if you completely plugged up a filter if the pump would create so much pressure in the system it would leak where ever it could. Don't know if the filter housing has a by-pass capability. Thanks again, Packratc

 

[willie59]

Pump has a pressure relief valve, not likely that's the problem, you have some problem with that compression fitting at shuttle control valve, you're gonna have to figure out what the problem is at that connection. Best of luck, Eastern time for me, gotta check out for the eve.