Line Boring Systems

[Williams Marine]

I'm looking at line boring work to broaden my scope of what I offer right now. I can't see myself doing 50+ scrapers as I know company's that would be called long before my little company is. I'm hoping to be able to generate line boring work when my core work slows down, which it always does around mid summer till fall time. I was going to chase the small to midsize contractor.
I want to make a wise investment, have a setup that can expand if the need arises but also don't want to bury myself.
The input from all sides, is great a real help, more then I could of hoped for when I started this thread. Please keep the discussion going. Thanks to all!

 

[BuMach]

For me i bought the line-boring equipment also to expend my business type off work and i just got Lucky that i had the oppertunity to work on one L150E which was worn out on all the bores.
i made a qoute for that job and a month or 4 later they called up i was allowed to fix it. Since i calculated out a big number for hiring a line-borer to do the job.
(i couldn't hire the machine which i previous did, cause that guy was affraid he was missing it when i was using it,) so i end up ordering one for my self.

i know people who only do line-boring, so those are the once that you will call when you've done all the pre work yourself. they probely end up having 8-10 hours worth off work(for example)
I offer a complete work range, from taking the pins out, repairing the bore and slab it all back together. so that makes me having probely 20 hours worth of work.
and i normaly get to order the parts which makes a bit more pocket change too.
So for me its easier to get more working hours with line-boring then.
And íf i'm to busy i just talk with the costumer if they can do the pre-work so then i can just come over and still do the line-boring job.

Had 7 weeks in a row off line-boring in the beginning off this year and i must say i was glad i could pick-up some other fixing jobs.
I still want to expend the line-boring service but i still do a lot off the "normal" fixing and some track work so for me its nice to line bore every now and then.

but if i can expend my company with a employe then i'm more able to take more line-boring jobs.


But good luck with the math and making up what to do

 

[StanRUS]

We'll keep the discussions active, I'll post ELSA prices my math resultants have SC1 40mm combo machine costing over $40thou. $40thou for a 2.41Hp-1.57" dia bar machine. Also SC3 60/2, 60mm bar diameter 3.08Hp-450Nm max (331ft lbs).

York seems economical, will 10Hp hydraulic with small diameter bars, facing head and borewelder; say adios to over $60thou (quoted Jan 2012).

 

[StanRUS]

ELSA (LBW-UK) SC1 40/4speed with 25% discount $34116.62 ex works, includes facing heads, small bar reducers
ELSA (LBW-UK) SC3 60/2 4speed with 25% discount $51442.70 ex works, includes facing heads, small bar reducers
Next day spare parts availability & 2yr warranty

I like these machines, deal breakers for me is COMBO borer & welder, you can't bore if the machine is welding and they won't fit into confined areas compared to C-Max.

 

[Williams Marine]

Good point, had not know this about the ELSA.
I saw the BB 5000 in the aft steering compartment of a ocean tug boring the steering linkage, well confined space is being kind. Basically each guy crawled in stayed in that spot with one guy topside handing down the parts needed. Ended up having to cut a hole in the deck as could not get the boring bar into the space and then rotate it to the vertical position and through the holes that needed to be bored. At least the two in the steering compartment were out of the rain.

 

[BuMach]

The small size off the climax is what i like about it too. Also that the feed is seperate off the turning.
Havent had a spot where my elsa wouldn't fit.
But for doing an articulation joint it would be handy to have a climax. With the elsa i need to get the wheelloader on its bud and then i have enough space to do the trick. Or get it in my shop and get it on top off the pit.

Sometimes its would be handy to bore on one spot and weld on the other. That why i sometimes hire a second machine from a good client of me. But i have got a qoute on a york welder and i can buy a second elsa machine for pretty much the same price. And for the few pluspoints the york welder has i can live with not having them..

Its all in what you want to do and how much money you want to spent to get to where you want to be.

I know i cant line bore over 400mm so i got some good contact which i will call when i got a job that needs a 400mm plus bore.
I dont have issues hiring a good craftmenship to do stuff i cant do. Sometime i even hire the guy to do jobs for me when i dont have time. And the costumer still calls me back for the next job.

But if you are only guy downthere who can do it and you can ask how much you want than i would go for it!

I got in contact with a guy in australia who thinks about stopping his line boring job.
He is willing to sell stuff. He got climax and a brandnew York welder.
Pm me for details.

 

[StanRUS]

Bu
I can give you Engineering Prints to self (or have made) borewelder, cost using mig gun to borewelder won't be much over $1000.00US The pricing for borewelders is ridiculous, I quoted 100 units @ a bit over $500 each minus the coaxial cable for one of the US manufactures. Except for the coaxial cable the aluminum shipping box cost the most.
Climax couldn't do a borewelder with the machine because Elsa's mommy owned the patent for machines that bore-weld as a combo.

 

[BuMach]

oke that's Always handy, how do they get the electrical power across?
the old elsa torch had the turning on the welding machine side, my new one has it in the torch it self, so the cable is standing still.
works a lot better then the older style one!

 

[StanRUS]

Line Boring System & Borewelders

BuMach,
Sorry for the delayed reply, had to dig through 50+yrs of prints and CAD files. How does the welding current transfer? Power-Coupler…Welding current from the coaxial cable and shielding gas is transferred from a non-rotating brass male stud (pin) to a rotatable female brass coupler affixed to a telescoping aluminum torch 24.0”-609.6mm AOL-1.25”Φ OD (31.75mm) 1.125”Φ ID (28.575mm). Welding current from the rotatable female brass coupler is transferred via M10 threaded-lock nut retained brass tubing (0.50”Φ (12.7mm) OD-0.25”Φ (6.35mm) ID to the adjustable bore welding mig swivel torch head assembly. Climax-Boretech-Dozer is basically the same except the torch is not telescoping; extension is via threaded connected torch extensions.

Rotating Aluminum Torch Body (spindle) AOL 18.25” (463.55mm) 1.5”ΦOD (30.1mm) 1.255”ΦID (31.877mm) machined external 1.5”Φ 8TIP ACME threads AOL 9.25” (234.95mm) machined drive-keyway AOL 11.75” (298.45mm) keyway width 0.1875” (4.7625mm) Coated with baked on heat resistant Teflon.

Before drawing CAD files, I’ll probably convert nominal measurements from ANSI Imperial (inch) standard to ISO (metric) standard. I’ll discuss converting all measurements to ISO-metric standards with a couple of friends with excess manufacturing capacity. With the increasing use of Robotic systems components are available that are more economical for these units example coaxial cables.

Williams Marine (**) my thoughts about which borewelder to purchase; disclaimer I am not affiliated with BRS, York, Climax, B&D or Italians.
Criteria 1) type of usage = light 2) cost of ownership, i.e. necessary repairs, replacement parts-service

Thumps UP goes to BRS 1)…because their units do not use proprietary electronic controllers or gear motors 2)…Try before you buy! They’ll send you a borewelder to try out before purchasing.

Tom’s BOA typically uses non-proprietary Dayton Speed Controller: Mod #6A191 E3099 Hp 1/6 H260 A3phase / phase1 $ea circa 1998 $53.91 Motor: Dayton DC Gearmotor: Mod #4Z534A Hp 1/30 V90 A.20 RPM 7 / Torque 50in-lbs $ea circa 1998 $89.00. Switch: 6pole USA 9909-10A, 250VAC / 15A, 125VAC 3/4Hp 125-250VAC V-Belt Duraflex 60G-2L130 Japan Source: Grainger’s Note: V-belt has been changed to sealed-chain on later units.

What is advantageous about units using Adjustable Weld-Bead-Stepping borewelders? The 1st spiral weld bead! BRS, Hofmann, and Castolin-Eutectic you typically do 1 or 2 spiral (revolutions) before engaging the linear travel clutch or manual axial feed box, really difficult, LOL. Using a copper back-up plate or copper tubing works okay to create a start-of-weld build up 1st step also. Easy-Weld, Climax-Boretech adjustable weld bead stepping borewelders IMO are not required for typical borewelding, they use complicated proprietary electronic controllers. Climax-Boretech repairs cost $1,000 to over $5,000!

Easy-Weld, York sold BRS for years so to create a ‘better mouse trap mind set indoctrination’; economical entry level Easy-Weld adjustable weld bead step borewelder…it is all about enhancing sales revenues! Easy, better, more precision etc also applies to Corporate Climax, BRS , blah; we want your money in our purse!

Excellent photo testimonial demonstrating ‘fixed mechanical step helical (spiral) borewelding  RayF’s thread on this website

Tug boat steering linkage weld-boring repairs…BuMach-ELSA could do the job by mounting the machine above deck and climb into the fun zone operating the unit via electric remote control. Any machine with electric remote control could likewise be used. Climax, Hofmann or any machine with manual (hand) controlled axial feeding unit requires keeping the axial feed box within hands reach even if the RDU were mounted above deck. Second person could run the machine above deck but that is extremely hazardous!

 

[Williams Marine]

StanRUS, great information, will need to read it a few more times to get it all to sink in. Have received quotes from York and BRS, time to try and compare those with the Climax quote. I am tentatively going to meet with a rep from York and then drive down and meet with Climax in a few weeks, till then off to a remote job location.
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge, great help.

 

[ETER]

WM, I'm getting ready to drop the cash on the "entry level" BRS (welder only)...will post after receipt/initial run. StanRUS, do all of the machines (bore welding) have a fixed RDU to feed rate (1/8" per revolution) or are they adjustable...or is the 1/8" (+/-) generally the rule of thumb?
Regards, Bob

 

[Williams Marine]

Bob,
Look forward to hearing back. I figure I'm about a month away from making this investment.

StanRUS or whom ever, I was talking with the York rep, asking about my LN-25 to run the York bore welder, he said I may have to install a module in my wire feeder for burn back. Any insight information I would welcome.
Thanks to all.

 

[StanRUS]

WM,
You MAY need to install a Burn Back Timer module on your LN25; not very expensive and the wire feeder is pre-wired. We currently use LN25s, LN7-GMAs and Flex Feed 74 digital wire feeders, the units without BBT are not having issues with wire stubbing during borewelding usage. A MUST use CV constant voltage! 75-25% CO2-argon shielding gas, no reason to use over hyped and sold tri-mix (suppliers make more $$$ selling you tri-mix). Tri-mix causes contact tip overheating, wire seize-sticking problems.

@ Bob, later

 

[Simon C]

StanRUS
What could you tell me are some problems with a B&D Manufacturing EV-2500 portable line borer for a person starting out. It probably would not do the job on the back of the dozer you posted. Could you email me things that are no good about this system for a person looking to start out. I can see you have lots of experience! Thanks! Simon
simoncyrenne@gmail.com

 

[CNY Bore]

I use BRS system with a Lincoln Ranger 10 for a power source and a Lincoln LN-25 for a feeder. I have focused on being portable and going to where the customer needs me . I am a toolmaker by trade and I believe that has helped me get up to speed . Rigidity is your friend !!!

 

[StanRUS]

Line Boring Systems - Borewelders

Bob,
Mechanical fixed-feed 0.125” 1/8” (3.175mm) step borewelders listed below:
BRS BOA308i-408i-M1 1/8” step
Bug-O-Systems BWS2000 = rebranded BRS 1/8” step
Climax-Boretech DOZER BW1000 1/8” step
Castolin-Eutectic ID Weld 25 & 2501 metric
Cat #1U9600 operating instructions SEHS8985 = rebranded Swiss designed Castolin-Eutectic not longer available

Synchronized non-adjustable step borewelders listed below:
Hofmann Engineering (AFU) is synchronized to spindle rotation by unit’s electric-hydraulic controller, non-stepping borewelder
MAUCOTOOLS Dual System, separate-able AFU can be uses as separate standalone borewelder; synchronized rotation to axial-linear travel, non-stepping borewelder https://youtu.be/iDutpN9I9IA
ELSA & Sir Mechanica synchronized non-stepping borewelders

Adjustable stepping borewelders:
Climax-Boretech BW2600 & BW3000…York Easy-Weld series & BRS 550-HD mechanical stepping adjustment

Soup-canning
Spiral welding (fixed mechanical) versus Non-spiral welding (adjustable steps) which one is better and why?
Go here http://www.repairbores.com/#!what-bore-welder/ch6q scroll down to soup-canning issue

BRS states Soup-canning does not occur with fixed mechanical spiral welding borewelders. WRONG:bash…Incorrect wire speed and low welding voltage settings can also cause soup-canning with BRS or Climax-Boretech Dozer fixed mechanical spiral borewelders…use higher voltage watch the weld puddle base metal for wetting action, i.e. a bit of penetration.

@Simon,
B&D EV-2500, which one, automatic feed or optional variable feed?
EV-2500 is not identical to BRS EV2; EV2 uses 3.3hp motor EV-2500 uses 2.2hp motor (15 to 150rpm). Nothing bad with your unit, power wise you'll want to use cutting bits with 0deg to 1.5deg lead angle and positive rake with chip breaker. I'll see if I have any jpeg drawn up and post later.

Do you use a borewelder?

 

[BuMach]

Lot off info came on this thread.
Stanrus, thanks for the info on the ID welder.
Personaly when welding in bores i dont see a lot off benifits on the step feed welding compared to the spiral.
The start off the bore with the spiral is for me second nature when you get the hang off it. Nothing wrong with it, it's simple with the mechanicals doing the job and not really fancy going on.
I also allign my shafts and bearings before i start welding the bore. So then i can switch easily from
Bore to bore. And if i have another machine i can weld with one machine and bore with the other.

I just got the 1.0mm wire tips from Elsa last week and i hope i can use them within a couple of days to see if it makes a lot off difference with the 0.8mm ones.
In 1.0mm you have more different wires which you can chose from.
Maybe i make the step to go to the 1.2mm too for the bigger bores.

Greetings and good luck with the investments

 

[Williams Marine]

Thanks for the wealth of information that has been posted, a great help.
I really appreciate the time that has been freely given to share your knowledge.
I am looking forward to the project I am working on in Western Alaska ending next week, flying home and taking this new knowledge and visiting York and Climax.

 

[ETER]

Stan,thanks for the different manufacturer's systems comparisons. I would say that at this point for my skill level I am better off with the mechanical "fixed" feed rate (KISS) approach. I checked out the video on the Maucotools system (a very nice unit), and I did re-read the info on the BRS site regarding "soup canning" (it sunk in more the second time) and will definitely keep the speed and heat in mind (will have to do several test runs before first $$$ bore).
Regards, Bob

 

[RayF]

I'm another fan of the KISS principle. I've known quite a few of the electronic control units that have let the smoke out of the box. Big dollars to fix and your stuck until you can get another one.
My welding attachment has zero electric controls. It is turned and fed by the boring head. I can feed the welder back and forth with the feed wheel and to engage feed a slip a collar to engage a simple open gear. Don't know how many tons of wire has gone through it and its cost me less than 20 bucks over 28 years.