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John Deere 410 - Hydraulic is dead

Discussion in 'Tractor/Loader/Backhoes' started by arnstein77, May 6, 2013.

  1. arnstein77

    arnstein77 Member

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    hi,

    I have a 1980mod John Deere 410 backhoe.

    49396_53_1881822153_xl_1.jpg

    I was stuck in mud and tried to get out by both driving and pushing with the digger when suddenly the hydraulic became weak. After a while the hydraulic did not responde at all. Everything is dead, power steering, front bucket, digger and the tractor does not move back or forward. There is no "bad" sound from the tractor.

    I have done some research on the web, and found that the transmission pump might be the reason. This pump feeds the main pump in front of the tractor. It could be an easy fix with a blocked filter or screen or it could be the pump inside the transmission.

    Does anyone have any experience with similar problems? Could it be something else?

    I was thinking to start to check the filter(s) and screen. Could anyone tell me where filter and screen is located from this picture?

    49396_imag0302_1.jpg

    If this is not a quick fix, how difficult is it to replace/fix the pump? Do I have to split the tractor?
     
  2. chroniekon

    chroniekon Senior Member

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    I have a 310, but I think it is very similar. The screen is about a foot long and 1 inch or so in diameter and sits across the bottom of the transmission. It can be accessed by removing the short hose between the horizontal filter and the transmission case. You have to drain the oil first of course. There are two bolts that hold the filter assembly to the frame. If you remove those, it will make removing the short hose easier. Remove the hose to case nipple and the screen can be pulled out.
     
  3. arnstein77

    arnstein77 Member

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    Thanx chroniekon!

    Do you think it could be a blocked screen causing it?
     
  4. chroniekon

    chroniekon Senior Member

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    A blocked screen could cause your problem. Your description of 'sudden' decrease of hydraulic function makes me wonder, however. There are several hydraulic experts on this site that will be able to give you better advice. I am far from an expert on hydraulic systems. I own one of these old backhoes for use on my farm and when I first bought it I changed all the fluids and cleaned the screen.
     
  5. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    My Deere experience is limited to a 610c, the system is similar, but the specific locations are different.

    I can't help you with the screen, mine is behind a big plug in the bottom of the transmission.

    The transmission filter is the short vertical cylinder in the bottom of the picture. http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com.deere.u90490.partscatalog.view.servlets.HomePageServlet_Alt

    The longer horizontal cylinder in the top left of the picture is the hydraulic filter.

    http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com.deere.u90490.partscatalog.view.servlets.HomePageServlet_Alt

    I couldn't find the screen, or the transmission pump. You might get lucky and fix it with new filters, and cleaning the screen. If not, that's a good place to start and see what kind of junk comes out.

    I'm assuming you checked the oil level, and that the transmission input is turning? do the gears grind like they should when you shift fast?
     
  6. OldandWorn

    OldandWorn Senior Member

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    This model is built like an Ag tractor with no driveshaft. I also have a 410 but sorry I can't add anymore info then already provided.
     
  7. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    Hello Arnstein, I'm sure you did all the obvious checks first. But just to hear you post them why don't you go through all the obvious checks first just in case the unit was low enough on fluid that you just might have blown up something. Did you smell fluid burning while driving it. Check the fluid levels to make sure they are not too low, perhaps if you may or may not have smell anything burning while you were operating it while trying to get it free from being stuck, because if you were smelling fluid burning thats your first clue to look into. I ask this because its not typically normal for a machine to be working fine then stop working after driving it aggressively to get it loose from being stuck. I strongly believe its not going to be a clogged filter, unless you were really pushing it burning it up and that caused a clogged filter, but that would mean you were really working it hard. Sounds more like you blew up and/or fried something, so make sure the fluid levels were not too low, and if they smell burnt, etc... Of course I'm only suggesting and can be totally wrong, but thats just what I'm thinking so far with what you have mentioned. Good luck with it.
     
  8. OldandWorn

    OldandWorn Senior Member

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    Here is something interesting.....I looked in my parts catalog to find the location of the transmission pump and I never found one. Unless I missed it, the main pump in front of the motor is the only hydraulic pump.

    I don't have a service manual but the next step after checking all of the obvious things that you mentioned would be to take some pressure readings. Also make sure that the coupling that drives the front pump hasn't loosened up.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  9. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    Sorry guys, I see its the 410 backhoe is the problem being worked on, didn't mean to take over the post having made the mistake of talking about the 310c.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  10. Deon

    Deon Senior Member

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    #16 in the photo should be the screen your reffering to.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. OldandWorn

    OldandWorn Senior Member

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    joeeye, are you looking under a straight 410 with no letters?
     
  12. Dr. Dozer

    Dr. Dozer Active Member

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    Coupler that drives the front main pump stripped and spinning on the spline shaft?
     
  13. outbackrider

    outbackrider Well-Known Member

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    The upright filter has the short 3 inch long x 1 inch diameter rubber hose running to the transmission housing. The hose needs to come off, and then the nipple on the transmission housing unscrews, there is a screen filter inside.

    The transmission pump is a gear pump that pumps oil to the front hydraulic pump, it is down inside the transmission. The front pump generates high pressure, but it has to be fed oil from the transmission pump in order to generate the pressure.

    Make sure your clutch is not pushed in for a long time, as this causes a delay in the transmission pump pumping oil to the front pump.

    Here is another idea....

    You may have a tiny piece of junk stuck in the filter relief valve causing transmission oil to go back to transmission instead of being directed to the front hydraulic pump. Your picture shows the 2 filter cans. The one that stands straight upright needs to come off. There is a plug on the side of the transmission case just up from the filter you removed. Remove that plug. If you look up into the filter cavity, you will see a spool valve. That spool contains the filter relief valve.The valve can be pushed out of it's bore with a screwdriver, out the plug hole. Not easily done. Once out, very carefully check the small poppit inside the valve spool. There could be a be a piece of debris holding the valve partially open which will keep your pressures from building.
     
  14. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    I got confused thinking we were talking about a 310c which is the same thing I have with a jittery hydraulic problem under load that I thought I could add to the conversation, then when I seen the original post was for the 410 I need to delete my posts and stop with the misleading advice.. oops sorry..
     
  15. OldandWorn

    OldandWorn Senior Member

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    No problem joeeye....could someone please tell me where to look so I can see this trans pump in a no letter 410? Outbackrider?
     
  16. outbackrider

    outbackrider Well-Known Member

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    O&W I have the service manual for a straight 310, same for straight 410, the manual refers to it as a transmission oil pump, but the pump is in the reverser brake housing. The pump is simply two gears. If you look under JDparts dot com look under the straight 410 machine alphabetic search "REVERSE BRAKE HOUSING" the pump gear assembly is part number 13. The service manual explains it this way: The transmission oil pump is a constant displacement, gear-type pump, located on the rear wall of the reverser housing and driven at engine speed by the powershaft. From what I have read, the transmission pump is pretty durable and it is one of the last items to fail....the gears (turn/pump oil) to the front pump when the clutch is released. If you hold the clutch in too long, you can loose hydraulic pressure.
     
  17. OldandWorn

    OldandWorn Senior Member

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    Thank you very much. I guess this POS military parts manual I'm using is missing some stuff. I will look for it online.

    So let me ask you this. My foot clutch is frozen so I have never been able to push it in. If I were able to push it in does that mean that the power steering would stop working?
     
  18. outbackrider

    outbackrider Well-Known Member

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    Happy to help...With my limited experience, yes...very possible. As the transmisssion pump disengages when the clutch is pushed in, the oil flow is reduced to the front pump, one of the first items charged with high pressure oil is your power steering. Also, make sure your fluid level is high enough. Also, the hydraulic oil accumulator, probably has lost it's charge, the accumulator is designed to supply the power steering and loader operation with high pressure hydraulic oil. The operator's manual states it this way....The transmission oil pump supplies oil for the (front) main hydraulic pump. Therefore, avoid prolonged disengagement of the engine clutch which controls oil pump operation. Disengaging the pump for long periods reduces supply of pressure oil for hydraulic functions.
     
  19. OldandWorn

    OldandWorn Senior Member

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    OK, thanks again. Yeah, I'm pretty sure after all of these years the accumulator is flat. I've been wanting to check into it hoping it might also smooth out the high pressure pulses from the main pump. It seems like the high pressure lines are vibrating way too much.

    I may have found the gear pump in my manual in the reverse brake housing. It's shown as an assembly so it's not actually showing gears like I was looking for and they call it "gear assembly-speed"
     
  20. arnstein77

    arnstein77 Member

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    Hi folks and thanks again for your quick response.

    I will give you some more information on the matter:

    This backhoe was for sale with the dead hydraulics. I took a chance and bought it ;-) The information I got on what happend when the hydraulics gave in is what the seller told me. He also told me he have not done any faultfinding on the machine. He seemed honest so I went over and had a look at the backhoe. The engine started easily and ran without any alarming bad sounds. And the fact that he was selling the machine with a second machine for spare parts made me take a chance and go for it ;-) I wil get the machine delivered to my place in about 2 days, so I posted here to get an idea on where to start when the machine arrives. i am hoping for luck and a quick fix!

    When I checked the machine at the sellers farm, I checked oil level on transmission (Stick under the seat) and oil level on the engine. Everything was fine and the oil did not smell burned. There was no bad sounds from the hydraulic pump and when i operated the controls for digger, loader or power steering there was no change and nothing happened. I checked that the axle from engine to the front pump was not broken and that it was spinning. I also lay my hand on the pump to feel if it was turning, and I believe it was. But off course, OldandWorn could be right that the coupling has loosen and that it is only spinning on the pump axle.

    That was all the checks I did before i bought it. :) Yes, I know I took a chance, but I like to live a little bit dangerous ;-)

    When I get the machine home my plan is:
    1. Check if the transmission is turning by shifting gear a little hard to see if the transmission grinds.
    2. Drain the oil from the transmission, replace filters, clean screen and check relief valve.
    3. Check the axle for the main pump.

    Please advice me if this is a good start.