Injector Pump is off, Won't line up.

[rutwad]

No, not yet. Thought there may be a problem and it was getting late. Hopefully with a fresh battery and time (maybe I should say willingness) I will get in going tomorrow.

Did you get it running ????

 

[partsandservice]

When you time an engine by marks on the flywheel it can TDC 1 or 6. The valves will be closed on 1 and 6 but to determine which is on TDC you have to check for overlap. So, if the engine is set at TDC compression 1 the rocker should be floating or have lash and 6 rockers would be tight . From this distance it seems the engine s what is 180 out, which would mean 360 on the crankshaft. Check the rockers they will tell the tale.

 

[melben]

When you time an engine by marks on the flywheel it can TDC 1 or 6. The valves will be closed on 1 and 6 but to determine which is on TDC you have to check for overlap. So, if the engine is set at TDC compression 1 the rocker should be floating or have lash and 6 rockers would be tight . From this distance it seems the engine s what is 180 out, which would mean 360 on the crankshaft. Check the rockers they will tell the tale.[/QUOTE

Sorry ,but posts like yours add to the confusion, fortunately, I think he knows he has a 4 cylinder! He has an abundance of correct info that would choke a horse.

 

[partsandservice]

The valves are different on a diesel than the print shown a few posts back, the diesels have a pattern that makes the front valve a in. and the second valve a ex. and is that pattern clear back the engine i e-i e-i-e-i-e. Best advice, quit making the job difficult, install the pump dot to dot and it will be close enough to run, you can e fine tune the timing after its running. None of the 180 degree out thing is relevant---Dot to Dot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do this every day and know how to deal with this situation as I have to clean up this mess from blowhards such as yourself who kind of have an idea how to time an engine but not really. I usually only offer advice and not criticism here but you opened the can of worms. Now we will break down your ignorance in the quoted post and in the response to my post. The valve overlap , flywheel pointer timing applies to a four as well as a six. Not all diesels have I e ie ie ie valve pattern as you state , but that is irrelevant anyway. We are concerned with the intake and exhaust valve being over lapped on the Cly that is at top dead center. Why not time the engine correctly and not just close enough, that is jack leg. Even slightly off timing can cause piston damaged if it does run. If he lines the dots up and the pump lines are 180 out to get the shaft to seat how is the 180 thing irrelevant? . It is relevant because the engine is 180 out. Quite simple. In this case it is dot to dot and line to line. I think it would be more confusing to have incorrect information than correct information. Sometimes it is hard to convey knowledge on a board like this, but as we can see ignorance comes across load and clear .

 

[rutwad]

Referring to the flywheel marks, I only recall seeing lines but no other indication. I will try to clean it some more. If I find a mark for TDC, then will each line indicate a degree?


Edit- Just went back and looked at the photo on the first page. It does look like a "0" just to the right of the indicator pin.

 

[partsandservice]

I an effort to consolidate what others and myself have tried to convey. Rotate engine to line up pointer on fly fly to TDC or 0. Remove rocker cover . Try to wiggle both intake and exhaust rocker on Cly 1. If they move a little then the engine is at TDC 1. At the same time intake and exhaust valves on Cly 4 will be closed and rockers will not wiggle. If you get the opposite result, rockers wiggle on 4 and not 1 . Then engine is 180 out. This is of course, also as stated earlier, assuming the base engine has not been apart. So engine timed , then time pump and install. These steps will get it done.

 

[melben]

You can take a swat at me if you like but these engines have been my life! In challenging me you have also taken on alr man , pumpguy and several others on this post. When someone puts an incorrect piece of info up here it needs to be dealt with. I cannot help it if you don't know a 4 cyl from a six, then call me ignorant in so many words. I have replaced hundreds of pumps in my career, mostly Roosa/Stanadyne, disassembled them made repairs and reinstalled them and no one needs to school me. I have never lifted a valve cover to find tdc, it is not needed to get the engine close enough to install the pump and do final timing at the flywheel markings. Not one of us was advocating running it out of time, just said it was close enough that it should run. I have seen customer units come in with the pumps jacked clear against the end of the slots to compensate for failed advance circuitry and never seen an engine burn down from that. That idea that a diesell will burn down because of a couple degrees timing error is much overblown.


Back in the 60s I installed turbo kits by M&W and part of that installation was advancing the timing 5 degrees to optimize power, some of those engines and sill running to this date. None burned down, and they are still in my territory

I have since retired from 52 yrs at the same dealership and am well respected here on forum in both diesel and hydraulics and have done phone consultation with fellow forumers to complete resolution of their problems, so I do not believe your haughty attitude is going to affect anyone's opinion of me. alrs, pumpguys, my and several others advice was spot on telling him to line up dot to dot. In one the man's first posts he affirmed that the engine had not been apart so with that info given forumers were acting on that. When that is done the engine will run and nowhere did I infer that was the end of the process. BTW, I don't ever remember you having to clean up any of my messes. The point is, the procedure for installing that pump was being made way more difficult than needed. I have put information up here that most never knew about even regarding the 0 advance kits supplied to Case to change starting timing on 580C backhoes to enhance the starting characteristics, probably something you were never aware of.

I have said all I am going to say into this matter, just be careful when you put info up here that proves you don't have a clue about the unit being worked on.

 

[partsandservice]

Well thanks for the resume' , but we are not hiring at this time. I will leave you to bask in the glory of accomplishments from yesteryear . You picked this battle of wits me and your only come back is I don't know a four Cly. Is top dead center 1 different on a six? I to will no longer post to this thread and will avoid correcting you in any other future threads so as not to hurt your feelings.

 

[Tinkerer]

Referring to the flywheel marks, I only recall seeing lines but no other indication. I will try to clean it some more. If I find a mark for TDC, then will each line indicate a degree?


Edit- Just went back and looked at the photo on the first page. It does look like a "0" just to the right of the indicator pin.

Usually if you turn the flywheel further there should be a 10º or 15º stamped next a slightly longer line. Sometimes there will also be a 30º stamped next to a slightly longer line. Your photo on page 1 is too far out of focus to determine what you are seeing there.

 

[rutwad]

OK, I have figured one thing out. I must be an idiot.

#1 cylinder toward front of tractor. Put at TDC on compression stroke. Verified by marks on flywheel. Installed injector pump with dots aligned. Through inspection window I lined up the marks there.

But I cannot get it even close to running!

If I take the inspection plate off, will fuel run out from the pump?

How would I know if an injector was bad?

I have no clue what could keep it from running. Diesel plus air plus high compression and it runs, so I thought.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Here we go again...
The engine is SUPPOSED TO BE at 8 * BEFORE TDC... THEN you line up the lines in the pump....
AND MAKE SURE your rotating the engine in the correct direction.. because if your rotating it wrong and stop at 8*... your actually at 8* AFTER TDC..
You may have other problems.. like a clogged return line back to the tank that will keep it from starting.. leave the return line off the top of the pump when diagnosing..
Are you getting any fuel squirting from the pump.??
IF you have the injector lines on the pump already, you have to leave them loose AT THE INJECTORS so it will bleed the air.. wait for the squirt and tighten..
MAKE SURE the shut-off lever is in the run position and the throttle lever is in wide open..

 

[thepumpguysc]

Just remember>> you can have fuel, air and compression.. BUT if your not injecting the fuel at the right time, it will NEVER start.. just sit there and smoke.. [white, usually]

 

[rutwad]

I am at 5 degrees Before TDC. I just wanted to be certain not to get past TDC or before 8 degrees. Figured 5 it would still start.
Engine is rotating correct direction.
Clogged return line, I will definitely check that!
Yes, I left lines at injectors loose until fuel showed.
Shut-off lever correct position.
Throttle- tried multiple positions.
I pulled the pump inspection window and fuel does come from it. Normal?
Diesel fuel looks good, but could it go "bad" after couple years?

Here we go again...
The engine is SUPPOSED TO BE at 8 * BEFORE TDC... THEN you line up the lines in the pump....
AND MAKE SURE your rotating the engine in the correct direction.. because if your rotating it wrong and stop at 8*... your actually at 8* AFTER TDC..
You may have other problems.. like a clogged return line back to the tank that will keep it from starting.. leave the return line off the top of the pump when diagnosing..
Are you getting any fuel squirting from the pump.??
IF you have the injector lines on the pump already, you have to leave them loose AT THE INJECTORS so it will bleed the air.. wait for the squirt and tighten..
MAKE SURE the shut-off lever is in the run position and the throttle lever is in wide open..

 

[rutwad]

I didn't work on it today, but I was told that fuel should not come from the inspection window if removed. I do have fuel coming out. What causes this??

Thanks again.

 

[lantraxco]

Always had fuel there when I opened them up? There's no oil anywhere in these so they run in the diesel as far as I know....

 

[thepumpguysc]

Rutwad..I don't know where your getting your info BUT.. The pump housing is FULL of fuel and returns back to the tank from the fitting on top of the pump..

 

[rutwad]

Rutwad..I don't know where your getting your info BUT.. The pump housing is FULL of fuel and returns back to the tank from the fitting on top of the pump..

I wasn't sure but wanted to check here to see. I can't get it to crank, so just trying to troubleshoot. My patience has worn thin, but I will soon double check the timing.

 

[Dickjr.]

Your going to have to do as suggested a few pages back. Take the valve cover off determine which valve is the intake valve , when it is opened and then closed rotate the engine up on compression stroke. When the valves on #1 are relaxed , being that the push rods have no pressure on them then go to your flywheel and either rotate it forward or backward and find TDC. At this point you can determine if your out 180 on the pump. If it won't start either way , your going to have to remove the front cover and check that all the gears are timed correctly. At this point it wouldn't cost much to have someone look at it. Even at 90$ an hour if it takes 4 hours which it should not it may bring and end to your problems.

 

[hosspuller]

I didn't work on it today, but I was told that fuel should not come from the inspection window if removed. I do have fuel coming out. What causes this??

I've been following your saga ... But it seems you're getting conflicting and wrong information. If you look back, you'll see my troubles with the injection pump on a Deere 310C. It uses a similar pump as yours. A Standyne or Roosa rotary pump. They are the same design. I'm guessing like GM and Chevy.

The pump always pumps a constant volume of fuel... But it internally dumps a portion of fuel depending on the throttle position. Because of this internal dumping, the pump body is always filled with fuel. Opening the inspection window lets the fuel out. The only way to see the pump internal timing marks when operating is to replace the inspection cover with a clear window. ... Otherwise, your dripping fuel.
Anybody that tells you "fuel should not come from the inspection window if removed" is either wrong or thinking of another pump.

Please pay attention to pumpguysc , who's been leading you in this thread... I have found his advice to be trustworthy

 

[rutwad]

This may mean absolutely nothing, or it might. I went to the parts store to pick up a piece of the fuel return line and the only picture the parts man found looked like the first picture. What I have looks like the second picture. One shows the fuel return line as one piece, the other shows "T"'s at each injector. Also one shows the injectors bolted in with a bolt on each side and the other shows them bolted in on one side. Thing is, the 580B image is what my 530ck looks like. The image of the 530ck is not.

ANY CLUES?