D8R new tracks

[Welder Dave]

If fuel is paid by the hirer could be a major factor the larger the machine.

 

[CM1995]

Except a d8r rental is 13k a month minimum heh.

That's cheap. I paid $15K a month back in 2004 for a D8R but it was a newer machine at the time.

 

[nicky 68a]

Just curious, how long do you figure it takes to pay for and operate, along with your other long term obligations involved to keep working..a machine that costs 1/2 to 3/4 of a million dollars like the machines you run? at the rates you quote?

Well,that’s a tough one to answer if my business was based solely on the purchase of a new D8/D9 and expecting to put it to work 2000 hours a year on a hire basis only.I’ve never done that,so I can’t answer that sorry.

 

[nicky 68a]

You're not going to see that over here either Nicky. You may bid a job with a D8 and wind up making $300/hr, but that's not a rental rate. It's equipment plus profit. Many states publish their rental rates. One of the first that came up was the CalTrans rate sheet. Up to March of 2022, they were paying $178 for a D8R and $223 for a D8T, which is more in line with what I was thinking. As for paying off a $1,000K machine, that's where your brain comes in. If you bid a job and use your head, there's new equipment in your future. If you screw up, it might be the Ritchie Bros auction.

That’s sounding more in the UK rates Check.The readers have to remember that I’m quoting off in GBP (Great British pound Sterling) and I’m guessing some of you lads are going off American,or Canadian dollers and perhaps Aus coin too.
I literally have no idea how the rates system and taxation works after a qualified accountant has been over the figures each year in your respective countries,but the contractors in my country do seem to get by with out going bust.
There are many more variables involved with making money out of a piece of equipment than simply the hourly rate.The machines are often part of a bigger picture and sometimes just a pawn or a knight in a game of Chess.

 

[nicky 68a]

Welder Dave has just pointed something out to me,that fuel may be part of your $3000 a day D8 rental?
Well,to clarify the UK side of things,generally the tractor rate is based on the tractor being supplied with a driver only by its owner (me).
The cost of the lowloader,fuel,GET equipment and operators overtime is born by the hirer.
Other variables get much more complex and are often utilised by the larger contractors are a cost of the percentage of trackwear over the length of the hire.Tracks are measured before and after the hire is completed and an agreed price is then charged out to the hirer.
In other cases,the big boys will offer a package deal of equipment that includes diggers,trucks,graders,bowsers,tractors etc.This is an intresting concept to me and I don’t have first hand experience with it,so I’m going off guess work and hearsay to some extent,but it works well for the bigger outfits,but somewhere in the package of equipment are machines that are working below what they need to be,and some are working well above what they need.For example,a contractor pays for a digger,5 trucks,a dozer,a roller and a grader.His digger is flat out loading the trucks and the D6 is breaking a sweat keeping them going on the fill area.
Meanwhile,the bean counters think they’re getting a cheap deal,but one of the trucks is often sat waiting on getting loaded,resulting in an easy day for all 5,the grader is snoozing most of the day,just making a little run up and down the haul road occasionally,the roller is sat on the edge of the fill area waiting his turn to roll,so the grader and roller are getting paid a lot of money to do almost nothing all day.The trucks are only working to probably 2/3rds of what they should and making easy money.
The only machines that are working above what they’re eating are the digger and the dozer.If you quantify all this up as a package,then the owner of the equipment has done well overall and the contractor that’s hired him thinks he’s had some cheap machines.
It laughable when you think,but by running cheap,the machine owner bangs 6/7000 hours on his tackle in 3 years and flogs it at Richie Bros or Euro auctions at a good price and the directors carpark is full of Porsches and Range Rovers

 

[nicky 68a]

But back to the OP’s D8R track job.
When you read some of my ramblings about how the hire sector works,or doesn’t,depending on your angle,you start to understand just how important it is to try and squeeze every penny out of the job.By using non oem undercarriage parts on a D8 in the UK instead of Cat purchased from Finnings (we only have one Cat dealership in the entire UK) I end up with more money in my pocket.
That’s my conclusion over 30 years.

 

[Mcrafty1]

Well,that’s a tough one to answer if my business was based solely on the purchase of a new D8/D9 and expecting to put it to work 2000 hours a year on a hire basis only.I’ve never done that,so I can’t answer that sorry.

Thanks anyway, I wasn't meaning to hijack this thread, I was thinking it was a part of the process of what was being discussed. Now back to the OP.

 

[nicky 68a]

Thanks anyway, I wasn't meaning to hijack this thread, I was thinking it was a part of the process of what was being discussed. Now back to the OP.

I totally agree with you Mcrafty,when people ask questions or advice on these threads,it’s often necessary to go off the track abit (excuse the pun) to help explain the answers we give.
To be honest,I’ve forgotten what the heck we were all supposed to be talking about anyway ha ha lol

 

[John C.]

The thread has devolved into something useful finally.

Rental rates in this area are done by the eight hour day, weekly and monthly. Four days equal a week, three weeks equals a month. The longer you have the machine, the less it costs to rent it. Renter also pays for machine transportation. Rents are always deductible as a straight expense. Leases may be deductible depending on the structure of the lease and ownership has to be written down on a depreciation schedule. Those schedules are subject to political manipulation so I usually see a lot of trade in business at the end of each year, until this year. Rental rates are determined by the capital costs of the machine and are a percentage of those costs also based on the projected rental life of the machine. New machines increase in cost so rental rates will always go up.

Machines are always for sale while still in the rental fleets so there is a lot of moving parts when a rented machine is sold and another machine has to be switched out on a rental customer.

Rentals from a franchised dealer only include the machine. Insurance can be purchased from the dealer but is usually covered on the renter's own insurance policy. Proof of insurance is required before the machine leaves. Renter is responsible for the operator, all fuel, maintenance and any damage repairs. The Cat house tried to make a surcharge on undercarriage some years ago but found they didn't have a mechanism to measure the undercarriage every time the machine went out and came back in on rent. The other problem is that a lot of machines go out and never come back to the dealer's lot until it is sold. They just leap frog from renter to renter.

Nicky's operation is different in that he is supplying machines more in the vain of a contractor here hired to move dirt. We have several contractors here who do that but all work on a bid basis for a complete job. I have a sometime client that does dirt and utilities work for new school sites, running 631 scrapers, excavators and dozers who works more like Nicky and every penny is squeezed tightly.

 

[Welder Dave]

Yeah, the $3000/day covers everything, fuel, operator, maintainance, etc. Transportation to the site and things like insurance are also worked into hourly or daily rates. For smaller machines doing shorter jobs there can be additional costs for transportation.

 

[Shimmy1]

Sounds like you guys have things figured out. Yes, my $3000 per day number includes everything. Operator, fuel, insurance, transportation, maintenance, and what's left is profit. I was going to ask Nick but he's already weighed in on the subject. On another note regarding rent. I called one of my salesmen yesterday. We got a metric-frickton of snow this past week, and looks like I'm going to get to push snow back from intersections and low areas. A 22 ton LGP (all they have is a GPS equipped one, so the price reflects) is going to cost.......... TWENTY THOUSAND per month. If I have a month or more of snow to push, I'll just buy one.

 

[nicky 68a]

John C,that’s a fair bit of script for me to take in on a Sunday night after a few beers and watching the World Cup football final ,but it explains just how different countries do things.
My mind boggles abit at it all,but thanks for taking the time to explain it.

 

[Welder Dave]

I remember back in the mid 80's a 235 Cat excavator rented for $10,000/month Cad. I knew a guy that rented one for pipelining and he still made good money.

 

[Robert0769]

Shimmy,although you are correct in wanting $3000 for every 10 hours that D8R runs,I’m afraid we’ll never see that here in the UK for hire work .
Here in the UK,I can get around £120 per hour max for an older D9T and £110 per hour max (and that’s almost unheard of,££90 more on the mark for my young D8T ripping).The hirer pays the fuel,cutting edges and ripper tips) owner pays the driver.
In some very rare circumstances,the hirer may pay for a percentage of undercarriage wear too.
It’s an unfortunate fact of life here.If I were to charge £2500/€3000/$3000 a day for a D8,I would never work again and possibly be blacklisted from every job in the country.
On the other hand,if you’re on a price per ton for rip and crush and stock operations etc,you may be in with a chance of earning that sort of money with a D8

I charge around 25-30k for 1,000-1,500cuyd. Dozer pushes 300-400cuyd an hour. 4,000cuyd 40-50k. 8,000cuyd 80k. I mean whaaa?

 

[Robert0769]

IIRC, and I’m too lazy to look at the first threads posted by the OP regarding this particular tractor because they go back a couple of years at least, that’s where it originally came from.

Came from a private seller who brought the machine down from Canadian pipeline.

 

[Robert0769]

That's cheap. I paid $15K a month back in 2004 for a D8R but it was a newer machine at the time.

Yeah I appreciate people's helpful opinions but I think they're a little out of touch on how much a d8r is to rent. Where I'm at, my 55klb excavator is 7k a month. I can't find any d8's that allow people to operate them. It always comes with operator. $2,000 a day.

 

[Robert0769]

The thread has devolved into something useful finally.

Rental rates in this area are done by the eight hour day, weekly and monthly. Four days equal a week, three weeks equals a month. The longer you have the machine, the less it costs to rent it. Renter also pays for machine transportation. Rents are always deductible as a straight expense. Leases may be deductible depending on the structure of the lease and ownership has to be written down on a depreciation schedule. Those schedules are subject to political manipulation so I usually see a lot of trade in business at the end of each year, until this year. Rental rates are determined by the capital costs of the machine and are a percentage of those costs also based on the projected rental life of the machine. New machines increase in cost so rental rates will always go up.

Machines are always for sale while still in the rental fleets so there is a lot of moving parts when a rented machine is sold and another machine has to be switched out on a rental customer.

Rentals from a franchised dealer only include the machine. Insurance can be purchased from the dealer but is usually covered on the renter's own insurance policy. Proof of insurance is required before the machine leaves. Renter is responsible for the operator, all fuel, maintenance and any damage repairs. The Cat house tried to make a surcharge on undercarriage some years ago but found they didn't have a mechanism to measure the undercarriage every time the machine went out and came back in on rent. The other problem is that a lot of machines go out and never come back to the dealer's lot until it is sold. They just leap frog from renter to renter.

Nicky's operation is different in that he is supplying machines more in the vain of a contractor here hired to move dirt. We have several contractors here who do that but all work on a bid basis for a complete job. I have a sometime client that does dirt and utilities work for new school sites, running 631 scrapers, excavators and dozers who works more like Nicky and every penny is squeezed tightly.

Yes I do per job and move dirt. Unless I'm waiting on import, each job takes 2-10 days and ranges from 25-80k or more.

 

[Robert0769]

Some pic porn for everyone. Here's the old track condition. I missed one picture of a broken bushing. "New" track is on.. way thicker in every way and the tension is much better. Took 1 hour to change. Kept same idlers since they're about .6" left and also the rollers all look good. It was just an old chain while the o

 

[Robert0769]

And..

 

[Tinkerer]

Wow !
What do the sprocket segments look like ?
From the looks of the chain they must have taken quite a beating.