Squizzy246B
Administrator
You may be surprised. We typically use 20% for the difference between compacted and loose sand.
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Cost of moving dirt...
- Thread starter crazycajun
- Start date
You may be surprised. We typically use 20% for the difference between compacted and loose sand.
Mack
Active Member
Yeah but that larger machine is going to move alot slower.
Countryboy
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 3,276
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Load Out Tech. / Heavy Equipment Operator / Locomo
I don't have exact numbers as far as the moving dirt goes but out here there are 6 PC400's with ME buckets loading a fleet of 18 Cat 773/775 haul trucks on our overburden operation. They can literally move mountains.
Even though this is a large operation, if you trim the numbers on the equipment you will still be getting alot moved. With a set up like this, you will need a dozer to push off into the hole.
Even though this is a large operation, if you trim the numbers on the equipment you will still be getting alot moved. With a set up like this, you will need a dozer to push off into the hole.
surfer-joe
Senior Member
It would be interesting Countryboy, to know how long it takes those PC400's to load a 773, and how many trips does that truck make in an 8 hour day? What kind of material are they in? Some of that red Georgia stuff?
773's would be far cheaper than Artic's, but loading them with a small ex like a 400, I don't know bout that. Then there is mobe in-mobe out costs. The Artic's may be some cheaper on that, as would the 400 over say a 992. But actual production would be better with a 992/773 spread, provided the 992 can dig the material without a dozer out front. Using a method I described elsewhere here, two 992's can load a 773 in 30 seconds or less in good material.
777B's and a Demag 485 backhoe with a 10CY bucket did pretty well with wet, slimy material, 3 buckets per truck, about a 35-45 second loading cycle. The biggest problem was keeping the slimes in the bed.
So, it still looks like a scraper run to me. 631/637 can haul 30-34CY at roughly 12-16 round trips an hour on average haul. Four push-pulls could do close to 15-16000CY an 8 hour shift with a get-with-it crew.
In days back, when in good material and a good crew, four D9 pushcats and ten 651B scrapers could do 12-14 loads an hour with a good haul. (It took ten loads an hour to break even) That was about 35000CY a shift. This was with 15-20 second loading times once the Cat's smacked the stinger. We routinely moved a million yards a month in Wyoming and Colorado with two spreads of 651's running 5 day double shifts. Usually worked 10 hour shifts. We did about the same in New Jersey with more scrapers and 12 hour shifts, but the haul was much longer and uphill on a steadily increasing grade as the dam got higher.
If that overburden is sandy and soft, end-dumps and single engine scrapers will slow down. So will the Artic's. Double-barrels will slow a bit too, but not nearly as much as the others, and their production will be much higher.
But, if you gotta run what you brung, I guess a couple of mid-size excavators and Artic's will do, it will just take longer and cost more. Truck drivers are cheap tho.
773's would be far cheaper than Artic's, but loading them with a small ex like a 400, I don't know bout that. Then there is mobe in-mobe out costs. The Artic's may be some cheaper on that, as would the 400 over say a 992. But actual production would be better with a 992/773 spread, provided the 992 can dig the material without a dozer out front. Using a method I described elsewhere here, two 992's can load a 773 in 30 seconds or less in good material.
777B's and a Demag 485 backhoe with a 10CY bucket did pretty well with wet, slimy material, 3 buckets per truck, about a 35-45 second loading cycle. The biggest problem was keeping the slimes in the bed.
So, it still looks like a scraper run to me. 631/637 can haul 30-34CY at roughly 12-16 round trips an hour on average haul. Four push-pulls could do close to 15-16000CY an 8 hour shift with a get-with-it crew.
In days back, when in good material and a good crew, four D9 pushcats and ten 651B scrapers could do 12-14 loads an hour with a good haul. (It took ten loads an hour to break even) That was about 35000CY a shift. This was with 15-20 second loading times once the Cat's smacked the stinger. We routinely moved a million yards a month in Wyoming and Colorado with two spreads of 651's running 5 day double shifts. Usually worked 10 hour shifts. We did about the same in New Jersey with more scrapers and 12 hour shifts, but the haul was much longer and uphill on a steadily increasing grade as the dam got higher.
If that overburden is sandy and soft, end-dumps and single engine scrapers will slow down. So will the Artic's. Double-barrels will slow a bit too, but not nearly as much as the others, and their production will be much higher.
But, if you gotta run what you brung, I guess a couple of mid-size excavators and Artic's will do, it will just take longer and cost more. Truck drivers are cheap tho.
Countryboy
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 3,276
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Load Out Tech. / Heavy Equipment Operator / Locomo
Naw its not red clay, its yellow clay, not real sandy but not real clay..ey either. :beatsme Beneath that its weathered rock and beneath that its the good stuff, Granite. 
The haul is app. 1500 yards from load point to dump point. They dump over the end of the bank, where a dozer is there to push off. Normally you will see a hoe on each side of the truck loading at the same time unless they get backed up, then its 1 hoe per truck till they get caught up.
The stuff is too soft for a loader at the loading face to where it wouldn't be very productive but once its been run over for awhile, it packs pretty good. They have a large JD tractor pulling a wheeled lot leveler to keep the roads graded.
I'll try to pay a little more attention to them and get a few cycle times on the trucks and such. Its a little hard cause they are only working for 1 more hour after I get here. I mainly go by what I see has been moved from one day to the next.
Scrapers might be better but you just don't see them too much down here. Plus, once they got down to the weathered rock, which also has to be dug to expose the granite, they would be useless. A loader would not be good in the weathered rock either.
Just throwing other options out there.....
The haul is app. 1500 yards from load point to dump point. They dump over the end of the bank, where a dozer is there to push off. Normally you will see a hoe on each side of the truck loading at the same time unless they get backed up, then its 1 hoe per truck till they get caught up.
The stuff is too soft for a loader at the loading face to where it wouldn't be very productive but once its been run over for awhile, it packs pretty good. They have a large JD tractor pulling a wheeled lot leveler to keep the roads graded.
I'll try to pay a little more attention to them and get a few cycle times on the trucks and such. Its a little hard cause they are only working for 1 more hour after I get here. I mainly go by what I see has been moved from one day to the next.
Scrapers might be better but you just don't see them too much down here. Plus, once they got down to the weathered rock, which also has to be dug to expose the granite, they would be useless. A loader would not be good in the weathered rock either.
Just throwing other options out there.....
surfer-joe
Senior Member
Hmmm, optimum haul for scrapers. Hate that rock tho. Scrapers do too. However, I ripped a lot of rock last summer here with a D9N and pushed 631's thru it --gently. The stuff decomposed after being exposed a while. There was a layer under that harder than the hubs of hell. It ripped hard and stayed hard. In fact, it's some of the hardest rock I've encountered outside of Denver Blue in Colorado and Pre-Cambrian Shield in Michigan's UP. Uh, the scrapers were rentals, not the contractors. Might have done different if he owned them, eh!
Been on a couple of other jobs, the scrapers hands were told to put the tranny in neutral and let the Cats push em thru. better on tires that way.
Yeah. See if you can catch some loading and cycle times. Be interesting.
Been on a couple of other jobs, the scrapers hands were told to put the tranny in neutral and let the Cats push em thru. better on tires that way.
Yeah. See if you can catch some loading and cycle times. Be interesting.
surfer-joe
Senior Member
Hey Brian, I don't like muskeg either, particularly in the summer when it's thawed some and I had to wade out in it looking for slasher chains. Not bad in winter tho.
BrianHay
Senior Member
For sure that can be ugly stuff. Slow going and downright scary sometimes. Its swallowed a few machines up north and the odd operator along with it. I helped twin a few sections of hiway 43 in Northern Alberta and it was stressed to us frequently if your machine starts to go down to bail out and get far away as you can. Never seen one go out of site but sure got my heart pumpin douple time on a few occasions. Built a couple sub divisions up in Fort mac about 7 years ago. Would like to go back and see how they are holding up. That was quite a challenge...I think I like it frozen better 2. I spent the better part of a winter up in the Mackenzie Delta deep in the Arctic. Loved it. like something straight of the discovery channel. When I was a kid and my parents threatened to sent me to Tuktoyuktuk if I didn't behave. Thought they were bluffing and it was a place they made up lol turns out its a real.
Mack
Active Member
I've been runing some numbers and with a 385 in a 11hr shift you will get about 9240yds moved.
Well, I have been away, and I find this has been a quite interesting discussion.
Now I realize that no one responding knows the actual job conditions, but in my experience, when stripping for a dredge, it will be very wet material. You likely will not be able to work from the bottom of the cut, but will need to dig down from the top, Thereby making the excavator the machine of choice. The difference of loading trucks on the same level, or loading them below the excavator in the bottom of the cut can make a difference of 25% or more in the production. In my experience, loading 35 ton artics with a 375 Cat, loading at the same level we were getting 200 to 220 loads per shift, but in the same material, when we were able to get trucks into the bottom, it went up to the 280 load range, an increase of over 30%. So many variables that you can only guess unless you know the actual site conditions. Scrapers work great, but in the mud, an artic will haul a full load every trip, and will run in muck clear past the axles. In these conditions, a scraper is pretty much helpless.
Regarding the production estimate on the EX-1200, I have read the article, and seen the pictures, and he is digging relatively hard material from a depth of 25 ft below the machine, and due to the conditions, swinging nearly 180* to load trucks. This is also digging underwater, where fill factor for the bucket is less. This machine in optimum conditions would probably dig 1/2 again that much.
Another consideration is that if the ground conditions are poor, it may not support a 385 size machine. A lot of operations in the southern states use a 400 with wide tracks for this reason.
Consider the safety aspect of dumping into a 100 ft deep dredged pit. Is it full of water, if so, it is even more unstable. You need to dump trucks away from this edge and push it out with a dozer, probably a wide track. Always leave a good high berm so the dozer or trucks do not become part of the fill.
The rigid frame trucks mentioned are the best when conditions are good, but I suspect if this material is unstable, they will be stuck more than they will be hauling.
Once again, I do not know the actual site conditions, but a blanket statement of what will work is no good without more information.
I also want to twist the comment "A loader will outload an excavator"
What size loader?
What kind of material?
Loading at grade or below grade?
Loose stockpile or tight bank?
Plenty of room, or tight quarters?
In my experience, if you compare by machine weight, the loader wins, but if you compare by bucket size the excavator wins.
Example:
988B loader (100,000#) will outload a 350 excavator (100,000#),
but 375 excavator with 7.5cy bucket will outload 988B with 7.5cy bucket
I'll quit using up space now
JD
Now I realize that no one responding knows the actual job conditions, but in my experience, when stripping for a dredge, it will be very wet material. You likely will not be able to work from the bottom of the cut, but will need to dig down from the top, Thereby making the excavator the machine of choice. The difference of loading trucks on the same level, or loading them below the excavator in the bottom of the cut can make a difference of 25% or more in the production. In my experience, loading 35 ton artics with a 375 Cat, loading at the same level we were getting 200 to 220 loads per shift, but in the same material, when we were able to get trucks into the bottom, it went up to the 280 load range, an increase of over 30%. So many variables that you can only guess unless you know the actual site conditions. Scrapers work great, but in the mud, an artic will haul a full load every trip, and will run in muck clear past the axles. In these conditions, a scraper is pretty much helpless.
Regarding the production estimate on the EX-1200, I have read the article, and seen the pictures, and he is digging relatively hard material from a depth of 25 ft below the machine, and due to the conditions, swinging nearly 180* to load trucks. This is also digging underwater, where fill factor for the bucket is less. This machine in optimum conditions would probably dig 1/2 again that much.
Another consideration is that if the ground conditions are poor, it may not support a 385 size machine. A lot of operations in the southern states use a 400 with wide tracks for this reason.
Consider the safety aspect of dumping into a 100 ft deep dredged pit. Is it full of water, if so, it is even more unstable. You need to dump trucks away from this edge and push it out with a dozer, probably a wide track. Always leave a good high berm so the dozer or trucks do not become part of the fill.
The rigid frame trucks mentioned are the best when conditions are good, but I suspect if this material is unstable, they will be stuck more than they will be hauling.
Once again, I do not know the actual site conditions, but a blanket statement of what will work is no good without more information.
I also want to twist the comment "A loader will outload an excavator"
What size loader?
What kind of material?
Loading at grade or below grade?
Loose stockpile or tight bank?
Plenty of room, or tight quarters?
In my experience, if you compare by machine weight, the loader wins, but if you compare by bucket size the excavator wins.
Example:
988B loader (100,000#) will outload a 350 excavator (100,000#),
but 375 excavator with 7.5cy bucket will outload 988B with 7.5cy bucket
I'll quit using up space now
JD
BrianHay
Senior Member
Great post. Lots of good info there. I never downloaded the full article on the 1200. Just looked at part of it in html format (no pics). I'm using my cell phone and I'm over on my monthly data usage now so its $3/mb, adds up realy fast.
crazycajun
Well-Known Member
i agree with the excavator part, 7500 yards with ex1200 must have bad conditions.. these conditions are perfect. dry sandy material, work in the rain for the most part. dont have to hold grade, and dump in a huge hole. the dredge is sittin about 5 lower than the material it is dredgeing. the extra 5 ft just falls right in. the trucks are running on the bottom now with no problems, i figure a 7 ft cut should fill a bucket about the same height as the top of the truck bed. just turn 20 degrees and dump. im thinking a normal stick will load quicker than mass ex. i dont see why a 7 or 8 yard machine couldnt load 10,000 yards in 10 hours maybe even with lunch break....
10 yrds heaped.= 1000 buckets a day, 100\hr thats a bucket every 36 seconds. the 10 yrd machine from earlier was making 3 buckets in 30-45 seconds. this is with no unforseen's happening during the day... just so we are capable of getting 10,000 yards on a good day it'l be ok. how many adt's would i need on a 1000ft haul.. and can you rent 773's? whats the cost and how much should i save with the bigger trucks
10 yrds heaped.= 1000 buckets a day, 100\hr thats a bucket every 36 seconds. the 10 yrd machine from earlier was making 3 buckets in 30-45 seconds. this is with no unforseen's happening during the day... just so we are capable of getting 10,000 yards on a good day it'l be ok. how many adt's would i need on a 1000ft haul.. and can you rent 773's? whats the cost and how much should i save with the bigger trucks
BrianHay
Senior Member
I think Joe is right. If its dry scraper are the way to. 3 637s can be loaded faster then a hoe can load 1 truck. They never stop even to hook together. And once they are loaded they are faster then the trucks as well. And they dump faster to. Drop down to first gear with bowl all the way in the air and spit out a nice pile for the cat to push into the hole. Then you only have 3 scrapers 1 grader and....2 dozers to keep up with them joe? They will be flyin at those cats awful fast.
surfer-joe
Senior Member
Cajun, is the pit the spoil will be going into full of water, or dry? What kind of trucks are the other fellas using? Just hard packed sand underfoot in the cut, or some clay and gravel along with soggy mud?
Some rental rates from around the country:
Cat 637PP==$27000/mo
Cat 631E===$18500/mo
Cat 385BL==$25200/mo
Cat 992G===$29500/mo
Cat D400E==$14300/mo
Terex 350C=$14000/mo (All wheel drive 50T)
Terex TR45=$14000/mo
I did a relatively quick search on the web for Cat 773 rentals, but failed to find any. I'm sure however, that a few phone calls would scare some up somewhere. They would probably be in the $16-18000/mo range.
Some rental rates from around the country:
Cat 637PP==$27000/mo
Cat 631E===$18500/mo
Cat 385BL==$25200/mo
Cat 992G===$29500/mo
Cat D400E==$14300/mo
Terex 350C=$14000/mo (All wheel drive 50T)
Terex TR45=$14000/mo
I did a relatively quick search on the web for Cat 773 rentals, but failed to find any. I'm sure however, that a few phone calls would scare some up somewhere. They would probably be in the $16-18000/mo range.
crazycajun
Well-Known Member
yeah it's full of water, and there is no soggy mud that i know of.. jus mainly dirt and sand mix pretty much sandy soil p.i. of about 11 or 12
crazycajun
Well-Known Member
why is 773 better than adt's just cause of haul capacity?
surfer-joe
Senior Member
Yeah, that's about right on the 773's. They are faster that the Artic's, less prone to breakdown, and they don't tip over so readily. Course, the scrapers don't tip either. Trucks run cheaper per yard than scrapers, figuring just the truck, not the loader and such.
Good scraper operators may be hard to come by these days. I was appalled last year when I went to work shoving cans in a development north of Phoenix. Out of the initial batch of four hands, only two were what you could call good, one other was fairly new but promising, the 4th was a dud. Over the next couple of weeks, I lost the two good guys and the up & comer, and got three others that were so-so. But they all had bad attendance problems so I never knew if I'd be pushing one or four on any particular day.
Haul truck drivers might be hard to find as well.
Good scraper operators may be hard to come by these days. I was appalled last year when I went to work shoving cans in a development north of Phoenix. Out of the initial batch of four hands, only two were what you could call good, one other was fairly new but promising, the 4th was a dud. Over the next couple of weeks, I lost the two good guys and the up & comer, and got three others that were so-so. But they all had bad attendance problems so I never knew if I'd be pushing one or four on any particular day.
Haul truck drivers might be hard to find as well.
crazycajun
Well-Known Member
so what you thinking on an average cost per day? 1500? is that too optimistic? how hard would ground have to be to support these trucks?
BrianHay
Senior Member
can we get an :update ?