Case 450 advice

[Jednlulu]

Whew! I can finally post! YEAH!
Ok, so, I recently bought a 1973 Case 450 dozer. My intention is to build my own pond and build some whoopedy doos for the kid's dirtbikes and various landscape work. Sold my boat, bought a dozer. My first time operating a dozer, I've worked a skidsteer and back hoe and have a compact tractor so, I'm not exactly an ameteur with heavy equipment but, not quite a novice either.
So, I test drove my girl at the former owner's residence and was advised to keep it in low range because the fuel filters were dirty and it would "puke out". That and the brakes were shot, were that way when previous owner purchased it 5 years ago. He said he just used the transmission to steer. When I arrived there, they were working her to clear a path next to the barn and push up a stump so, she seemed to be reasonably solid. Undercarriage, oh, not the best but maybe 20% life left in her. I knew going in that I'd have some work to do...question is / was, just what am I in for!?
SO, since I've gotten her home, I've removed the deteriorated master cylinders and slave cylinders and have replaced fuel filters and air filter. I plan on pulling the drums out tomorrow (today fun filled with kids soccer games and nephew's birthday party).
I've done more research since I've gotten her home and (my nature) fear the worst about her condition. She starts up really good, sounds strong, doesn't blow any smoke but I'm wondering if I'm in for a high level repair job with the clutches and / or torque converter. The guy told me that the reason for having to toddle around in low range was due to the clogged filters (and by golly they were dirty). I'm worried that I may have clutch issues. I haven't tried running her since I've gotten her home because I have things removed to access the brakes.
What I'm after here is any advice or insight to look for to better assess her condition. Is it possible to "adjust" clutches? Any way to confirm condition of torque converter? Any other things I should be weary of that would lead to low / slow crawling power? Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I'm going to attempt to attach a pic of her...let's see if this works. Also, I've got my eye on a used, good shape set of tracks / rear final drive sprockets that are off of a 1977. They "look" a littler different...will they fit my girl? Otherwise, any advice as to where I might look around for a decent used set (I'm in NW Ohio). Thanks..this forum is very insightful! Oh yeah, I gave $5k for her. Thoughts?

 

[John Canfield]

Your pads look like they have plenty of life left.

I looked at a 70s vintage Case 450 a year ago. Its engine was 300 hours into a major overhaul and the UC was in pretty good shape. The owner (it was on consignment) wanted $14k for it - way, way too much. I offered $8-9K and never heard back. Believe it is still for sale. I think you did okay paying 5k - you will have to put some parts into her, but I think you will have a good little dozer when you are done.

Can't help you out on the mechanical questions :beatsme

 

[Jednlulu]

Well, thanks for the help with my buying confidence anyway!

 

[Jednlulu]

Got the Left side drum off!

ok, so I went ahead and pulled the Left side drum off...man, they don't give you a whole lot of clearance do they!? Anyway, I can't see that there is any problems inside...the discs seem not to be that worn. Of course, I'm not familiar with what new looks like but the ribs seem pretty deep yet. Any thoughts?:beatsme

 

[Jednlulu]

I take that back...the splines are GONE from the discs....shoot!

 

[alrman]

Jed,
Welcome to HEF.:thumbsup
You've done well to get to where you are! Yep, brakes are GONE. You will need new discs from either a Case dealer or aftermarket supplier nearby - I can't help much there.
A couple of pointers though ,
1) Check to make sure there is no end float on the pinion shaft - (what the brakes run on).
2) Make sure any split or cotter pins you fit to clevis pins on the brake actuator are stainless steel. (normal split pins will wear & clevis pins will fall out in no time - resulting in no brakes)
3) Case machines are designed to steer using the transmission - only use brakes when really nessesary
4) your belly plates look pretty full - good to keep them clean - will save some grief later on.
Re Drive:
5) Does your transmission pressure gauge work? At operating temp, at engine idle speed click through all gears - it should come to exactly the same pressure & take the same amount of time to do so with each shift.
6) Clutch packs are not adjustable
7) Convertor problems will show more with loss of drive as operating temp rises
8) There is a mechanical 2 speed (lever at your left heel) - make sure it is in LOW range & leave it there - you will only be able to change it with engine stopped.
That should keep you busy for a while - we are here to help

 

[oldseabee]

Just a quick sequence of events with the Trans/convertor system.
1. Charge pump pump supplies oil to the clutch pressure regulating valve first.
2. Minimum clutch pressure has to be reached before the regulating valve will shift, allowing oil to go to the convertor.
3. The convertor generates a lot of heat and depends on the charge pump to supply enough flow through the convertor and to the cooler to take the excess heat away, flow is usuall measured by pressure drop across the cooler or with a flowmeter.

4. If the machine seems to work good when cold, then gets weak, the oil is thinned out from the heat and now can be bypassing either inside the charge pump or past the seal rings in the convertor and or the clutch packs.
5. If you check clutch pressure at idle with hot oil and all the clutches are close to the same but low and come up significantly when the RPM is raised, probably the charge pump is worn out.
6. If the clutch pressure is low with hot oil but stays fairly close to the same as RPM is raised, the spring could be weak or broken. I have shimmed the spring with a dime or similar disc to bring the pressure back up on a temporary basis.
7. If one of the clutches shows low pressure at idle with hot oil and the rest are OK, you probably have worn seal rings in the clutch piston, or on the support shaft or there is a crack some place in that clutch.
Not sure what spec is for clutch pressure on that machine, usually clutch packs run in the 180 to 240 psi at idle with hot oil. You cannot get a good reading unless the oil is up to 180 Degrees F.

 

[OneWelder]

Early 450 had 5.875 trk links later had 6.00 You will have to measure

 

[Jednlulu]

Thanks to all for the great advice. I think I've got the hook up on some new discs. Once I get that all back together, I'll run her again and perform the various tests / checks as advised by alrman and oldseabee. Thanks OneWelder for the track info. Very helpful. I really appreciate all the feedback received thus far! :notworthy

 

[SouthOnBeach]

it's been awhile since I rebuilt the brakes on a 450. the old 450's don't have clutches in them. they have a dual transmission in them. one for the left and one for the right, you have a two speed forward and reverse for control. the high low lever controls the main torque converter output to the transmissions. when you depress the brake peddle the hydraulic presser from the master cyl presses on a disengagement valve that releases the hyrdo drive in the transmission, then it starts to apply pressure on the brake disk to stop the output shaft that you see the brake disc on that is directly connected to the output shafts to the final drives...
they really aren't hard to work on. just tight in some places and a little weird. other then that, most parts are still available.

 

[Jednlulu]

SouthOnBeach, thanks for the added insight. I was wondering why the brake lines ran up to the valve pack like that. I just assumed they secured at that point...didn't consider that they served dual function...but, now, makes better sense. So, steering is accomplished by running one side in high speed vs low speed to other side? Just seems kinda weird, like that would put additional strain on the drive system...Thanks again.

 

[SouthOnBeach]

you can steer by running one side high and one side low, you can just put one in neutral and leave the other in hi or low. or once you get your brake system working you just press the correct peddle to turn. light peddle you dissengage the valve pack that it goes to the side (we'll say right side for now) press the peddle harder and your start applying the brake to slow or stop the track to make your turn.

 

[Jednlulu]

A random thought today, while driving

Soooo, I was thinking today (usually leads to trouble)...anyway....notice my discs in the pics above, the center splines are completely rounded out. Could my initial brake failure have stemmed from the hydro pack not actuating (disengaging) the drive when brakes were applied, hence putting all brake pressure on the discs / pinion thus "wallering" out the splined portion of the discs? Any thoughts on that? I hate to dump another $320 bucks into new discs only to have them chewed up right away....ointhead
Any advice on how I might "test" the braking portion function of the hydro pack before putting everything back together and wind up :Banghead ??
As always, any advice is greatly appreciated!!

 

[alrman]

Sooo, If you steer it with transmission & leave your feet off the pedals - they will never wear out :yup
Later models have wet brakes & should still be driven the same.

 

[SouthOnBeach]

could have..... the one i rebuilt had one of the centers tore out of it and was well stuck to pressure plate and housing. to the point of having to hammer and chisel it apart. so i'm more of the opinion that the brakes where gettin really sticky and not releasing, then machine was parked for awhile, which was enough to give it the same as a stuck clutch to flywheel. (ever have one that you need to get under and scrape it apart) so those disc splines are the weakest link and they get tore out. :beatsme
as long as you know you're testing and making sure everything is working, i would have no problem putting it all together and running it through testing. you know not to stand on the peddles trying to get it to turn. if it doesn't go with light peddle pressure you know something is wrong... the other way to compare is machine in low forward. put one side in neutral and press that sides brake peddle and see if that amounts of brake force are the same for turning.

 

[SouthOnBeach]

don't be afraid to use lots of anti seize and grease on those linkages also!

 

[Panmanm437]

Take alrman's advice & steer it with transmission. The old dry brakes disc won't hold up pedal steering the 450. Use brakes only when really nessesary. Mike, panman

 

[Jednlulu]

What now!?

Thanks to all for advice thus far. I'm still at it, given periodic intervals of "free time".
So, I've got my discs, my master cylinders, my slave cylinders, new hydraulic lines for between master cylinders, brake fluid....everything I need...now with exception of some brake valve piston parts (I think I was right....from earlier post). It appears that the pistons seized up inside the brake valve (a simple piston that links from master cylinder to the hydro pak that disengages the drive) and that's what caused the failure.
SO IF ANYONE HAS ANY "LAYING AROUND", I'd be interested in taking them off your hands!
I was able to free one side's piston but the other is still "soaking".

SO, today I was just going to move on to the "pods" as my good friend Toney McCull in VA calls them. I can't seem to figure out how to get the bottom (most forward) plate out so that to remove the forward most brake disc :beatsme (on the bottom considering the image posting). Seems as if you have to remove the splined shaft that the actuating arm attaches to but, it ain't a budgin'. When I try to hammer the shaft end, the arm inside the "pod" binds and it won't come out. The pins that the linkage pivot by have cotter pins but they're assembled from the other side....what the heck? :Banghead

Anyone have any advice on this?

 

[AU.CASE]

Soooo, I was thinking today (usually leads to trouble)...anyway....notice my discs in the pics above, the center splines are completely rounded out. As always, any advice is greatly appreciated!!

Sold my D750 fourteen years ago, it had the double acting disks just like this and I always kept the hydraulic brakes clean with regular fluid changes every time the floor came up.

I changed the disks before work and did 2,100 hours pretty quickly, only adjusted the hand brake once or twice and always pedal steer, as far as I know it's still going strong.

One tip I remember is to grind out the wear in the ball ramps inside, so the 'self servo' actuators rise smoothly, if not the brakes tend to grab as they notch in and out of the old wear pattern, new balls springs throughout too and you're good to go!

 

[alrman]

Jed,
the pins at the top of the housings (held in with circlips) need to come out - I can't be 100% sure on those early models - but the later models had different size circlips, one end of the pin had smaller od than other - meaning the pins only go out one way.
splines could be siezed to the internal lever - spose you've tried a good quality penetrating oil?
Those clevis pins need the stainless cotter pins I mentioned earlier.