They are definitely no better than a wheel machine, but to say you can't move snow with a your CT332 would be false. People use them for that all the time and they get the job done fine. If you've got the machine and can make money pushing snow with it you will be fine. Slopes are a pain, but that's really no different from a wheel machine unless you're chained. If you're putting a thousand hours on plowing snow, yeah, I'd look into a wheeled machine for winter, simply for economics regarding the depreciation or the CT, but if it's just a hundred or 2, I'd run what you got.
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can rubber track machine push snow
- Thread starter Jim Dandy
- Start date
I agree with you that the RC50 shouldn't be compared to the T250. After all the RC50 is almost 2 tons lighter.
I respect your opinion on how you feel about the ASV machines; however, I don't agree with them. While they are far from perfect, as are all other machines, I have owned one for some time now and I have found it to be extremely dependable, very productive, built no worse than others, etc.
I was a Bobcat salesman for over 8 years, and I can't honestly say that Bobcat, having been building skid steers for generations, doesn't use any better components than the ASV machines or others out there that exceed engineering qualities by any significant amount. I've seen thousands of different failures on the Bobcat machines over the years, and while they are good machines (I still own a S220), the ASV machines stack up just fine with them IMO.
Shifty
Active Member
IMO The Tires vs Tracks argument isn't nearly as important as the machines ability to flex with the surface for maximum traction. Rubber tired skids with their bucket or blade on the ground carry most of their weight on their rear wheels. Those wheels get a incredible amount of traction with the correct air pressure. That being said the track machines need to be split into 2 groups RIDGE FRAME CTL and SUSPENDED CHASSIS MTL machines. Now the most popular of those is the ridged frame CTL simply because it's cheaper to build. By it's own design it limits it's ability to push by not being able flex to fit the surface it's on. From race cars to rock crawlers if you can't flex with the surface you are on you can't get a grip. The suspended chassis machine MTL have ether torsion axles on the track frames or oscillating bogey rollers or even better BOTH. When I was lookin to buy a track machine that one point was the deal breaker on everyone I looked at. I got both torsion axles and oscillating bogie's.My machine runs year round and have a contract for snowplowing a industrial complex on a hillside that has alot of staging areas and service drives. I have plowed it with rubber tire skids with chains and tracked machines. Tires work great but you need chains at least on the front wheels to get you off of the ice or if you are piling and get into deep and saddle bag the breast.They will turn a SHARP corner better than a track machine while pushing. Suspended track machines MTLs On a straight push can't be beat especialy up hill or piling snow. Normal turns like a pickup or a car would make can be plow with no problems, forget pin point 90* turns. I'll get flamed for this,But leave the ridge track machines the shop. Their track system is a little more durable than the MTLs for rocks and large gravel but they lose in flexible contact patch.
Dieseldeere
Member
pushing snow
Caterpillars undercarriage is a spinoff of a "snow-go" like the utilty companies use. Its soft and flexible with no steel bars across the tracks. Except for the 289c-299c. They perform well in the snow as do the ASV,s because they are the same manufacturer. Cat owns part of ASV. These "nice" riding machines come with a price, They dont like rocks and gravel or pretty much "dirt". Hard particles tear chunks of their rubber coated rollers off and wear the tracks out.
The other machines Bobcat,Deere,New Holland,Komatsu I believe Takeuchi and will assume Kubotas new line all run unercarriages made by a company called Berco. There are small brand specific changes to each but all pretty close in design.
For example Bobcat rollers run in the center of the track on the steel lugs,you do the math... Deere runs the roller flanges out to the smooth rubber edges of the track to loose some of the bumps but when you roll over a rock you still get the window rattling Rat-tat-tat. Komatsu had them build a triple,Center with side flanges. Have not been in a Case sat in a 299c at a trade show. Have spent 3 years on CT-332 Deere, worthless in snow. Spent a week working a friends T-300 in Tahoe same thing. Yes Im in California,Yes we have snow up here. Its not L.A.
You can save a lot of money by buying a snow/utility blade instead of a dozer blade. Deere makes one and I think Quick Attach (attachment Co.) markets one. About 2,600$ instead of 9,000$
I have not tried them But Skidsteer solutions ,check them out online, markets a product called Trackbites that bolt onto the side of the tracks for mud and snow. They are only for Bobcat but the track tolerances are all so close I dont think you would have to modify much to put on another machine.
Hope this helped, Good luck.
Caterpillars undercarriage is a spinoff of a "snow-go" like the utilty companies use. Its soft and flexible with no steel bars across the tracks. Except for the 289c-299c. They perform well in the snow as do the ASV,s because they are the same manufacturer. Cat owns part of ASV. These "nice" riding machines come with a price, They dont like rocks and gravel or pretty much "dirt". Hard particles tear chunks of their rubber coated rollers off and wear the tracks out.
The other machines Bobcat,Deere,New Holland,Komatsu I believe Takeuchi and will assume Kubotas new line all run unercarriages made by a company called Berco. There are small brand specific changes to each but all pretty close in design.
For example Bobcat rollers run in the center of the track on the steel lugs,you do the math... Deere runs the roller flanges out to the smooth rubber edges of the track to loose some of the bumps but when you roll over a rock you still get the window rattling Rat-tat-tat. Komatsu had them build a triple,Center with side flanges. Have not been in a Case sat in a 299c at a trade show. Have spent 3 years on CT-332 Deere, worthless in snow. Spent a week working a friends T-300 in Tahoe same thing. Yes Im in California,Yes we have snow up here. Its not L.A.
You can save a lot of money by buying a snow/utility blade instead of a dozer blade. Deere makes one and I think Quick Attach (attachment Co.) markets one. About 2,600$ instead of 9,000$
I have not tried them But Skidsteer solutions ,check them out online, markets a product called Trackbites that bolt onto the side of the tracks for mud and snow. They are only for Bobcat but the track tolerances are all so close I dont think you would have to modify much to put on another machine.
Hope this helped, Good luck.
CAT owns 0% of ASV. Terex owns 100% of ASV. I won't pick through the specifics of your post, but there are at least 5 incorrect points you made. However, you are 100% accurate regarding performance in snow for any of the rigid undercarriage machines.
I found out myself a couple of weeks ago. During the snow when it was snowing very heavily and you would make a pass and almost right after making the pass there would be a dusting of new snow both the solid rubber tire and the rigid track machine were struggling. The pickup with the plow was most effective while plowing during the snowfall. After it stopped snowing and there was some traction the 2 skid steers were very productive. I disagree that the JD 332 is useless in the snow. The solid rubber tired skid steer got stuck and spun out way more than the track machine. Maybe air tires would make a big difference, I don't know but suspect they would have more traction.
Dieseldeere
Member
tracks on snow
I stand corrected.
Winter before last My buddie Dan and I thought we could make a few bucks moving snow up in Fall River.
He also has a CT-332, the first series with the bolted on cab towers. Our great idea fell short quick when we couldnt even get out of his own driveway!
May have to do with Ice.........
I was running my shredder in Shingletown last winter DURING a snowstorm and it moved around O.K. on flat ground, but this was fresh falling snow about 1 foot deep.
Maybe the fresh stuff will pack up in the lugs and give some traction. However,I ended up replacing a 300$ chrome exhaust and 1 headlight due to the Digger Pine standing some 200' tall at the bottom of a hill I was working on. Hey ,I got one full rotation on the way down!
So my point is, They dont tend to get (stuck) they just dont perform like we all think they will in snow.
I stand corrected.
Winter before last My buddie Dan and I thought we could make a few bucks moving snow up in Fall River.
He also has a CT-332, the first series with the bolted on cab towers. Our great idea fell short quick when we couldnt even get out of his own driveway!
May have to do with Ice.........
I was running my shredder in Shingletown last winter DURING a snowstorm and it moved around O.K. on flat ground, but this was fresh falling snow about 1 foot deep.
Maybe the fresh stuff will pack up in the lugs and give some traction. However,I ended up replacing a 300$ chrome exhaust and 1 headlight due to the Digger Pine standing some 200' tall at the bottom of a hill I was working on. Hey ,I got one full rotation on the way down!
So my point is, They dont tend to get (stuck) they just dont perform like we all think they will in snow.
CRAFT
Senior Member
Digdeep YOU couldn't have worded it better ....Ditto ! :drinkup
I agree with dieseldeere that they don't perform like we all think they should in the snow. All I am saying is that they are far from useless (in my situation) for snow duty. Especially for post snow storm touch up of parking lots after the plows have been through the people pay us to fine tune between cars, make access to dumpsters, and piling up snow in centralized piles and consolidating piles.
Dieseldeere
Member
tracks on snow
Sounds like you have a good thing going Jim Dandy.
DigDeep,I wondered what was up with the whale grey paint, okay so they got sold off. My point is still not wrong it was a CAT ASV thing.
Jeez ,next your going to tell me Bobcat is owned by some foriegn company.
If your calling B.S. on me give me the other 5 so I can learn more.
A friend who sold Bobcat for years told me the new sprung suspention Bobcats undercarriage is self built,not sure about the fixed style, but said they were berco in the past.
Sounds like you have a good thing going Jim Dandy.
DigDeep,I wondered what was up with the whale grey paint, okay so they got sold off. My point is still not wrong it was a CAT ASV thing.
Jeez ,next your going to tell me Bobcat is owned by some foriegn company.
If your calling B.S. on me give me the other 5 so I can learn more.
A friend who sold Bobcat for years told me the new sprung suspention Bobcats undercarriage is self built,not sure about the fixed style, but said they were berco in the past.
Dieseldeere
Member
prfire20,
I agree, lots of buddies have them. Have run a few at 1/2 day or so, Super in snow, not so fun in rock and gravel-(if you have to buy the parts).
Im sure they wont be good in snow with the embedded type tracks, but the new 9,s caught my eye,I am going to try one.
I agree, lots of buddies have them. Have run a few at 1/2 day or so, Super in snow, not so fun in rock and gravel-(if you have to buy the parts).
Im sure they wont be good in snow with the embedded type tracks, but the new 9,s caught my eye,I am going to try one.
Ohio Takeuchi
Active Member
This is mostly correct. Berco made bolt on track undercarriage systems to work with the wheel machine chassis for Bobcat, Deere, Case, New Holland, Komatsu and Cat 299c series. The Komatsu and Cat undercarriage are nearly identical with the same drive motors. The CAT has notches between each roller komatsu does not. All of the machines were designed to be wheeled skid steers and get a bolt on undercarriage instead of wheels. Most still have the chain cases
Takeuchi, now Kubota and IHI have a dedicated track system. These machines have been designed to be track machines from the ground up. The are welded to the body and overall better designed.
Cat MTLs are great golf course and landscape machines. Even in the manual it is strongly recommended to stay off gravel and side slopes to do severe damaged to the undercarriage. The undercarriage is very expensive to maintain.
IMO track machines are not ideal for pushing snow. I use and recommend wheeled machines. The same reason track machines do well in mud make them poor in snow. Ground pressure.
Waldoc1
Member
tracks are great for everything but snow.
Tracks are like snowshoes and you will float on top and spin around. Better to have tires in the snow
Tracks are like snowshoes and you will float on top and spin around. Better to have tires in the snow
jrtraderny
Well-Known Member
Dieseldeere
Member
tracks in the snow..........
Jrtraderny, I know,I was being a smart ass. The salesman at Bobcat west said it was like 47 Million and that 30 some odd Mil. was actually paid for by the Korean gov. That was the fall of 07. (boy this should fire up some e-mails)
Ohio Takeuchi,
I have the local Cat guy checking but it sounds like its their own undercarriage.Will pipe up when he confirms.
I have run a Komatsu and their Idlers (front and rear) are actually a triple..
Meaning Bobcat runs a single center.Thats it. Deere runs a double (no center wheel) Cat runs a single rear,triple front. BUT have read a few postings about track derailing problems and sounds like their fix could be a triple rear. Maybe someone with a Cat can fill us in.
I am curious who makes Tak,s undercarriage?
Were all here to learn more so here is the part you are misled on.
If you park a CT-332 Deere next to a 325-328-332 Tire skid (same frame class) They are not the same, the pins are bigger,The coolers are bigger and there are no chains or cases. I cant speak for all brands but I think all the CTL,s are purpose built track machines. You might have a bust on Thomas skid steers.
No matter what ,the MTL,s and ASV,s rule the snow!
Fill me in on the IHI, I do recall the name, maybe a little green excavator?:beatsme
Jrtraderny, I know,I was being a smart ass. The salesman at Bobcat west said it was like 47 Million and that 30 some odd Mil. was actually paid for by the Korean gov. That was the fall of 07. (boy this should fire up some e-mails)
Ohio Takeuchi,
I have the local Cat guy checking but it sounds like its their own undercarriage.Will pipe up when he confirms.
I have run a Komatsu and their Idlers (front and rear) are actually a triple..
Meaning Bobcat runs a single center.Thats it. Deere runs a double (no center wheel) Cat runs a single rear,triple front. BUT have read a few postings about track derailing problems and sounds like their fix could be a triple rear. Maybe someone with a Cat can fill us in.
I am curious who makes Tak,s undercarriage?
Were all here to learn more so here is the part you are misled on.
If you park a CT-332 Deere next to a 325-328-332 Tire skid (same frame class) They are not the same, the pins are bigger,The coolers are bigger and there are no chains or cases. I cant speak for all brands but I think all the CTL,s are purpose built track machines. You might have a bust on Thomas skid steers.
No matter what ,the MTL,s and ASV,s rule the snow!
Fill me in on the IHI, I do recall the name, maybe a little green excavator?:beatsme
You are almost correct on some of your information.
There are two primary providers of steel rollers in the CTL industry, both of them Italian- Berco and Passini. Here are the links:
http://www.bercoamerica.com/default.aspx
http://www.valuepart.com/
The valuepart link is the US based group owned by Passini.
Berco is probably CAT’s largest competitor in the aftermarket parts business for dozers and excavators.
Berco actually manufactures the whole undercarriage for Komatsu and Deere. Contrary to what Deere will try to tell you it was introduced on Komatsu’s machine in Europe for well over a year before Deere launched their CTLs. The other OEMs with the exception of CAT and Takeuchi use primarily Berco components, but have their frames built by different suppliers. CAT’s CTL rails and components are actually South Korean and in November CAT purchased the company that was manufacturing for them- http://www.cat.com/cda/files/200765... Announces Acquisition of JCS Co Ltd.pdf?mode
The “notches” are merely different style idlers selected by the different OEMs. There are triple, double or single flanged idlers that they can chose from.
While most of the OEM use an existing skid steer chassis, none of them still have chain cases. They are either driven by a sprocket directly coupled to a drive motor, or a sprocket driven by a drive motor/planetary drive combination. Although not a CTL, the VTS is the exception because it bolts directly onto the wheel hubs of a skid steer and is driven off of the “rear” chains.
I’m not going to beat a dead horse on snow pushing again. “MTLs” aren’t just for golf courses or landscaping, although they do excel in these areas. They are just fine for general construction work regardless of the Kool-Aid that people try to get you to drink.
Shifty
Active Member
I agree with Digdeep the MTLs can handle the same work that the CTL do. If common scene is used. I don't shy away from hills or slops frontwards backwards or sideways.Gravel and rock are no different to me.
The main thing is to use common scene when you are running a MTL.
You can not do 90 or 180 turns on a bed of gravel or stone and not expect to load the tracks and rollers with materal that going to destroy them.Go forward and reverse turning slightly each time.
Also pushing hard while in a turn will cut tracks on rocks cause only one track is doing all the work.Stop, backup, and turn to correct and continue the push with both tracks driving.
Don't spin the tracks its not necessary.your machine will push harder without track slippage. spinning tires or tracks have no adhesion to the surface.
Clean the tracks out. Not just shovel them out get in there and look for rocks and stones and even wood that can and does get wedged in the framework
My 277 Cat has 1500 Hrs on it. Caterpillar did a evaluation on the tracks and rollers, It got a 80%, I am hopeful for another 3500 Hrs on them before changing them out, We'll see!!
The main thing is to use common scene when you are running a MTL.
You can not do 90 or 180 turns on a bed of gravel or stone and not expect to load the tracks and rollers with materal that going to destroy them.Go forward and reverse turning slightly each time.
Also pushing hard while in a turn will cut tracks on rocks cause only one track is doing all the work.Stop, backup, and turn to correct and continue the push with both tracks driving.
Don't spin the tracks its not necessary.your machine will push harder without track slippage. spinning tires or tracks have no adhesion to the surface.
Clean the tracks out. Not just shovel them out get in there and look for rocks and stones and even wood that can and does get wedged in the framework
My 277 Cat has 1500 Hrs on it. Caterpillar did a evaluation on the tracks and rollers, It got a 80%, I am hopeful for another 3500 Hrs on them before changing them out, We'll see!!
bonanno23
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 131
- Location
- Long Island NY
- Occupation
- union drainage foreman, also own a full time lands
Thats pretty good that you have 1500 hours and have 80% left on your tracks/under carriage. I would love to see a picture off that. We have 8 cat 287B and 287C, 297C models and have never come close to that. We are large company and are not owner operated when it comes to the equipment (we have around 15 operators). I just can't see how you could possibly get that much out of a set of tracks.