Another Perkins Pukes

[U8u812]

Bought a Mitsubishi S4S aka Perkins 804, same basic motor as cat 3044. There are some of these motors out there in the surplus market in this generic configuration.

I know there will be challenges getting it to fit and not be too cobby, but I did see one mostly installed and working in another 226.

Anyone who has done this, has some tips, or has a 236B, 246B etc parts machine they selling off of, please let me know.

I'll post more if/when I make some progress.

 

[Swannny]

looks like the old perkins had the plastic flex plate that is notorious for cracking. CAT has an improved metal flexplate. Did your new Mits/Perk come with a flex plate? Guess your exhaust has to be re-routed since it's opposite?

 

[U8u812]

Good to know I can upgrade flex plate. I'll look for that, thanks. I think I nicked a few teeth when pulling the motor. This one has no flex plate, same spec flywheel & bell housing though.

Exhaust & intake have to swap sides or be piped. Some other stuff seems like it will be a tight fit too. I'll probably do a dry run line up without the flex plate to see where the motor mounts land and if I have to move anything else. Angle of radiator drop down will probably have to come up a bit. The other one I saw was rigged with an electric fan to save space, but I'm going to try to use the original set up.

 

[U8u812]

Well, the new motor is in. It was a bit of work to get everything to fit, and the radiator door does not go down to its original position due to taller motor, so I welded on a new latch and put in a higher stop.

There was not an upgraded flex plate for my model (226) but the old one is fine.

Machine runs & works great, has a little more power too, and a motor with a proven good track record.

First picture is Cat 226 with new Mitsubishi S4S motor.

Second picture is cracked oil pump on original Cat/Perkins motor, next to motor's id tag. My Cat dealer had very little in the way of comment when I told them of this. I did not ask for anything from them, but wondered why owners of this equipment were not notified of known defective part, so it could be replaced before engine was destroyed.

I have lost a lot of faith in Caterpillar Equipment and their dealer Southworth Milton. I was considering getting a new or used track loader form them, but their salesman did not follow though even though the office knew I was in the market. So I now have a repaired 226 and a new Ditch Witch mini trac, probably better off.

All the years of paying 30%+ premium for yellow Cat branded filters and fluids did not help me out with the defective engine. Pretty sure Wix filters and Rotilla will do just as well, especially at the intervals I change them. No more brand loyalty for this chump!

 

[d9gdon]

Looks good, was it a pain to get in there or did it go easier than you had thought.

 

[U8u812]

It went in pretty easy, rear motor mounts bolt right up. I did grind a little off the top of bell housing so I would not have to move a couple bolts that secure the hydraulic lines.

But after it was in, routing the exhaust was critical, as the manifold is on wrong side. Had to fabricate new front(of motor) mounts, re position intake manifold, go to a smaller battery, etc.

Added another couple pictures showing new position of radiator door. It still slants down some, so coolant flow still works.

 

[Swannny]

Glad to see you got it done and it worked out ok. I'm sure you have a good amount of time in it.

The guy that I know who does the transplants routes the exhaust towards the back gate, then over and dumps it into the back of the muffler via a hole saw. Some of the Cat models have the mufflers on the driver's side, but it would be a pain to swap everything. I've always appreciated machines like Komatsu that have the manifolds and mufflers wrapped to keep the engine bay temps down which helps keep the hydros cooler.

Same guy also relocates the hinges on the coolers for better clearance and to maintain the slope, but it cuts into the rear sight line. Easily fixed though with a back up camera. Intake filter housing was in front and was kind of a pain to service since the cab had to be tilted for the best access.

I would not have guessed the flex plates were different depending on the model of the machine. Seems like the application would be specific to the engine - I think he's used the upgraded flexplate on the 242 which I though was the same block as yours.

Hopefully your swap will last you many trouble free hrs.

 

[U8u812]

Thanks, yes, it took a lot of time, a lot of it figuring best route for things. Would take less time if I did it again, like any (hopefully) one off project.

I did consider repositioning muffler and adding hinge height also. I tried to stick to the idea of doing everything as simply as possible & not buying or making a lot of new parts.

Some of the hydraulic lines had to be moved.

Actually have considered a back up camera anyway, but the way I did it, visibility is not that changed. It never was that good. Also have some muffler/exhaust wrap and heat tape on the way from summit racing to try to keep things cooler due to tight hose clearances.

 

[apetad]

Isn't it obvious why the Salesman wasn't excited about selling you one? See all the above... Maybe He's really your best friend and is doing you a favor without your knowing it?

 

[U8u812]

An update on the above motor replacement. It has worked great, except apparently I under torqued the bolts that hold the motor to the main pump. The gap backed off and the plastic flex plate, or "flange" as Cat calls it, got stripped at the drive gear. Had to take motor out again and replace, on a job site this time. The "flange" cost $170, and the job took 8 to 10 hours with all the driving back and forth from job to shop.

These bolts are very hard to get to and there is not enough clearance to get a normal wrench or socket to them. Cat must use a special tool, or do the job with the cab off. I did see one post where a guy paid $3,000 to a dealer for this repair. Its a pain, but not that much of a pain.

Anyway, between a ground down socket (21MM, if I recall) and a modified box wrench I was able to torque them pretty well. Applied a lot of lock tite too. Also going to lift cab and check this periodically from now on.

 

[Birken Vogt]

There are countless numbers of these engines that have experienced catastrophic failure. It is what they do.

Saw this in the other thread but thought I would post it here.

I have customers with variations of this engine under 3 brand names (none Cat) going back to the 80s. I have one junker in my yard but it is the hot rod turbo aftercooled and where it came from makes me wonder about if it was abused. Otherwise they have been good, all still running. Including a Chinese one built in the early 2010s.

I wonder if there was a bad run in the early 2000s? Or if it was just the Cat ones that had problems?

I'd like to see if we can discern a little more about the pattern of failure. I am inclined to like this engine otherwise.

 

[Bison]

Bought the machine new and have always serviced it per the manual. I never have run it hard and only use as much throttle as needed to do the work. It has a foot throttle, the only time I set the hand throttle is when using a driven attachment. I have used the machine extensively to blow snow which is at full throttle but there is not really a load on the engine when blowing snow. I always warm the machine 20 minutes before starting the blower.

I was using the bucket when it blew, I was only a few hundred rpm above idle. I heard a high pitched "ping", like metal snapping under tension just before the oil light/beeper came on. Oil level is fine. I don't know the internals of this engine, but if I were guessing I'd say whatever drives the oil pump broke.

.That "ping" could've been a bolt(1 of 6 10 mm bolts)breaking that mounts the balancer to the bottom of the block resulting in the balancer breaking up and. The balancer drives the oil pump,..lack of oil does the rest, seizure of the crank and piston is the result.
I had that happen to one of my 3054's , 3 of the six bolts had run loose, the fourth one broke

 

[fasteddie]

Bought a 2005 236 CAT with a 3024 ct engine with 1100 hours that looked good and had the original tires that matched. The owner said the first motor was replaced by Cat at 500 hours because of a overturn. He said a new 3024 turbo engine was put in that fit a later model and had more power.The oil was real dirty and I asked about it and was told oil changes were at 500 hours like the book said. All the filters looked good as did the seat. I bought this and thought since it was a cat and perkins, it would be ok.
I ran this about a hundred hours and it always used oil and got the oil dirty after you changed it. It never had a lot of power, but I had never run one before. One day while loading round bales it started knocking and locked up. I was running it a little above idle.
I don't have a lot of money, so I pulled the motor and tore it down. The breather hose was loose from the turbo and the turbo full of dirt and bad. The head gasket was blown into the number 2 pushrod hole. The lifter was gunked up and had a flat spot on it. The crank was stopped up with junk and the number 4 rod bearing was melted.
I got the crank turned .010 for 115.00. I have the block bored .020 and honed. I can get a kit for 800.00 with pistons. A oil cooler is 200.00 and oil pump is 250.00,turbo is 300.00,rod 60.00 and lifter 15.00. These parts are aftermarket, not cat. I don't think the parts could be much worse quality than the Cat parts. The same Chinese probably made both of them. I am going to grind the valves and put it back together. I hope to use it to build some fence before she blows again.
I was told that these same engines were in a 170 New Holland. A neighbor rebuilt one and said the parts were over 10,000.00 a few years ago.

 

[DGODGR]

I find this thread interesting and there is potentially good information in it. I think it important to note that there are many of these motors going strong out there without having these failures. I often wonder, when seeing threads like this on-line, how much weight to put on them if using them to try and decide if I would avoid the subject engine/machine or if these might be isolated incidents. It seems that these forums often expose the issues while those that are not having them don't feel motivated to post (no upset-no need to vent). This is easily understandable but may not fairly express the majority of ownership experiences. I'm not trying to minimize the upset or negative impact to those who have experienced said failures. For them (as it would be for me if I had such a failure) I'm sure it's very real, significant, and will have considerable weight when thinking about buying the next machine. In the spirit of the intent (to try to help others possibly avoid the failures and to somehow benefit those who may have already had those experiences) of the thread I would like to know if there is a way to consolidate and organize some of the pertinent information so as to offer the most value possible for anyone who would try to avoid experiencing said failures, possibly prevent them if they already own the subject machine/s or engine/s, or to help find a way to repair/replace said components in the best possible way. Maybe if we can catalog/organize this information the moderators might want to "sticky" this information for easy reference to anybody looking for this information. To that end I request that those of you who have had such experience contribute your information. I propose to offer some questions that i think are pertinent. Please feel free to add anything that you feel I may have missed and lets see what we can come up with.
1) What model/s of this engine are having failures?
2) Are these engine failures exclusive to Cat (seems like based on this thread)?
3) I have seen a few different engine names given for the same engine (i.e. Perkins, Mitsubishi, Cat). Please clarify which engine/s are subject, or known to have, such failures.
4) Along this/these engine line/s is there a range of serial numbers that can identify units that are susceptible to said failures? Have they been upgraded by the OE? If so is there a date or serial number that began said upgrade?
5) Are all failures oil suction tube related?
6) Is there a fix/upgrade (hopefully economical) for this that will prevent these failures?
7) Post failure, what has been the best remedy for repair (i.e. engine repair, replacement)?
8) What is the best source for replacement engines and/or repair parts?
9) What is/are your post repair experiences? Do you still have the subject machine or did you unload it? If you retained ownership has the repair/replacement been worth it for you? How many hours of service since repair/replacement?
10) What else?

 

[Birken Vogt]

I have a Perkins version of this engine turbo aftercooled high horsepower in my junk pile somebody gave me. I am now interested, will have to pull it apart and see what went wrong with it internally.

 

[John C.]

I know for a fact that this forum and many others are regularly monitored by the manufacturers and the information is logged and cross checked against warranty or policy claims made at the franchised dealer networks. There is a search function available for anyone looking to do pure research using this site. Generally I would not be in favor of doing the research on a volunteer basis that the manufacturers are getting paid to compile anyway. People presenting the facts of their experiences in a public forum being anonymous prevents to a large extent the legal system from being used to prevent the dissemination to that type of information.

The other side of this is that the manufacturers generally know of the problems and have programs to help defray the costs of these premature failures. The way that it works though is on a fix as fail schedule. If the problem happens while the machine is in the warranty period it is no problem to repair it. If the problem happens after the warranty period the issue becomes a policy review and getting things fixed becomes a bit of a problem. Presenting the information provided here will many times provides some leverage in loosening up those policy discussions.

 

[rwoody]

just put a new engine (off ebay) in our cat 232 loader

fuel pump housing timing housing blew up

same old deal as all of above posts --2001 hrs

 

[DGODGR]

I know for a fact that this forum and many others are regularly monitored by the manufacturers and the information is logged and cross checked against warranty or policy claims made at the franchised dealer networks. There is a search function available for anyone looking to do pure research using this site. Generally I would not be in favor of doing the research on a volunteer basis that the manufacturers are getting paid to compile anyway. People presenting the facts of their experiences in a public forum being anonymous prevents to a large extent the legal system from being used to prevent the dissemination to that type of information.

The other side of this is that the manufacturers generally know of the problems and have programs to help defray the costs of these premature failures. The way that it works though is on a fix as fail schedule. If the problem happens while the machine is in the warranty period it is no problem to repair it. If the problem happens after the warranty period the issue becomes a policy review and getting things fixed becomes a bit of a problem. Presenting the information provided here will many times provides some leverage in loosening up those policy discussions.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Regardless of weather, or not, the MFR compiles this info is mute because they are not sharing it. I'm suggesting something informal (no names or addresses) to help readers sort through the info of this thread and the multiple member experiences that generated it (and any others who may yet contribute). Many have already been willing to tell us their experience. Are you suggesting that we are not somewhat anonymous here. Are you suggesting that the MFRs would track us down with cease and desist orders? I suppose it's possible but I doubt they'll put much energy into it. That just might backfire for them and legitimize the claims. I have posted some, what some may consider, pretty damning information and they have never reached out to me or, at least to my knowledge, told the site administrators to close a thread. I didn't do so to create a black eye for anyone but rather to help educate my fellow consumers and maybe one, or more, of our community might offer a viable solution to the issue. I felt that I posted what took place and I hope that I am protected by freedom of speech to do so.
As it relates to your second paragraph it seems that most of said failures have not been under warranty (for whatever reason). To me this makes the possible information even more pertinent to the consumer.
I apologize if I did not interpret your post as you intended.

just put a new engine (off ebay) in our cat 232 loader

fuel pump housing timing housing blew up

same old deal as all of above posts --2001 hrs

I was under the impression that these failures were limited to older machines (B series and older). Am I wrong in thinking this? Was this failure related to the oil pick up tube or something different? Which engine is in your 232?

 

[DIYDAVE]

I ain't blowed up the one in my ASV RC30 yet... 2500 hours and counting (knock on wood), alls I have done is change the oil, about 1x a year, fuel filter and non pressure hose on the fuel intake, and year afore last, I had the top gasket on the inj pump spring a leak, so I pulled the pump, and had it rebuilt. Motor on mine is a cat 3013 A/R 177-4706, serial#4xd00805. same motor as a Perkins 403d15, AFAIK... I am the only operator, so maybe that makes the difference...

 

[fasteddie]

I find this thread interesting and there is potentially good information in it. I think it important to note that there are many of these motors going strong out there without having these failures. I often wonder, when seeing threads like this on-line, how much weight to put on them if using them to try and decide if I would avoid the subject engine/machine or if these might be isolated incidents. It seems that these forums often expose the issues while those that are not having them don't feel motivated to post (no upset-no need to vent). This is easily understandable but may not fairly express the majority of ownership experiences. I'm not trying to minimize the upset or negative impact to those who have experienced said failures. For them (as it would be for me if I had such a failure) I'm sure it's very real, significant, and will have considerable weight when thinking about buying the next machine. In the spirit of the intent (to try to help others possibly avoid the failures and to somehow benefit those who may have already had those experiences) of the thread I would like to know if there is a way to consolidate and organize some of the pertinent information so as to offer the most value possible for anyone who would try to avoid experiencing said failures, possibly prevent them if they already own the subject machine/s or engine/s, or to help find a way to repair/replace said components in the best possible way. Maybe if we can catalog/organize this information the moderators might want to "sticky" this information for easy reference to anybody looking for this information. To that end I request that those of you who have had such experience contribute your information. I propose to offer some questions that i think are pertinent. Please feel free to add anything that you feel I may have missed and lets see what we can come up with.
1) What model/s of this engine are having failures?
2) Are these engine failures exclusive to Cat (seems like based on this thread)?
3) I have seen a few different engine names given for the same engine (i.e. Perkins, Mitsubishi, Cat). Please clarify which engine/s are subject, or known to have, such failures.
4) Along this/these engine line/s is there a range of serial numbers that can identify units that are susceptible to said failures? Have they been upgraded by the OE? If so is there a date or serial number that began said upgrade?
5) Are all failures oil suction tube related?
6) Is there a fix/upgrade (hopefully economical) for this that will prevent these failures?
7) Post failure, what has been the best remedy for repair (i.e. engine repair, replacement)?
8) What is the best source for replacement engines and/or repair parts?
9) What is/are your post repair experiences? Do you still have the subject machine or did you unload it? If you retained ownership has the repair/replacement been worth it for you? How many hours of service since repair/replacement?
10) What else?

1) My engine is a 3024C with a turbo
2) My neighbor had a 170 New Holland with the same motor that had the oil passage burst on the outside of the motor and lost oil and locked up.
3) My engine had CAT in real big letters, Perkins in small letters and Shibaura in tiny letters I could hardly see. My engine was made by Shibaura (N844LT} as was the New Holland 170.
4) Mine was a later motor, as it was replaced at 500 hrs.
5) My oil tube had a washer welded on it and had no problem with the tube. I know of 3 people in my small area with Cat skid steers that had the oil pump break and ruin their motors with less than 1000 hrs.
6) I think the head gasket problem has been fixed with a better quality gasket. If the oil gets really dirty and has blow by, I will pull the head. The breather tube coming loose from the turbo can be checked daily. I don't know what to do about the oil pump breaking.
7) I am trying to fix my motor myself. One neighbor spent over 12000.00 on getting his fixed.
8) I am going to use Maxiforce parts on mine. I am getting mine from a machine shop, but Ebay has them.
9) I haven't got mine fixed yet.
10) I have been running tractors since I was 10 years old and have some that I have more than 10,000 hours on with almost no problems.