Another Perkins Pukes

[Swannny]

Not that great of pics, but it gives you the idea. Actually, it's pretty enjoyable to operate with the cummins in it. Get's people's attention w/o a muffler too! Lot's of torque at low rpm (i.e. spins the wheels), unlike the perkins which seemingly you had to tach up pretty high to get it to start moving.

The side mounts are forwards and a bit inside a couple inches of the factory mounting brackets. Rear mount is about 4" behind factory.

 

[Desertwheeler]

Any other info you can provide? Like how the pumps are mounted and stuff?

 

[Steve Frazier]

Can the radiator drop down where it belongs? Looks tight! That little Cummins is a great engine though

 

[Swannny]

Tandem drive pumps are suspended from the bellhousing...connected to the back of the flywheel with a flexplate that he found. Not sure on the specifics.

Radiators had to be moved upwards a bit for clearance sake. Blocks the rear view, so I installed a back up camera.

 

[ifixjunk]

ANOTHER ONE AND ANOTHER ONE , PERKINS PUKES,!!!!!!!!
Hello,
This is my first time posting, but I have read a lot of post on this site and found some very good info . So first let me say thanks to all the guys on here who are willing to take their time to help some of us less knowledgeable folks out.
Here is the deal I have a 2005 Cat 257b with the famous 3024ct sitting in my yard. Boom all the way up with safety support locked in place. It was hauled in here that way on a rollback. How they got by the DOT beats me. The engine is down in it for the second time , Its run maybe 15 hours in 3 years. A friend of mine is pulling his hair out trying to figure out what to do with it .
Original engine 3024 ct gga went at aprox 1450 hrs, replace it with a 3024ct csd that gave trouble from start, rebuilt it before installing , started it with bad oil pump, crap it out , rebuilt again and 10 hours later it was down a gain. Now all of this is from my friend not wanting to go to Cat because of prices and I understand that. But I also know him and his crew are not grease and oil friendly, so its in the shape its in for many reasons. Now he ask me if I could check it out for him and maybe get it running. I am the 3 or fourth person to have their hands on this thing.
By reading here and other sources its obvious That the 3024 has had some issues, bad head gasket, bad oil pump installation from factory from what I can find. pick up tube comes loose and causes oil flow and pressure problems. I also saw where some have said piping around and connectors on turbo are a problem.
Can anyone tell me if I am on the right track and if so what are the Fixes for the above. I am looking at rebuilding a engine from a bare block up. the original engine has crank broken , I don't know what else till i get it and tear it down, the original head is on the csd that's in loader. I know oil pump is down in original engine. My thinking is since all I have is basically a bunch of junk, Go with the original block on a rebuild if block checks out. That way all the numbers on the machine would be right. Also it would be back to factory specs along with fixes.
Has anyone had any luck rebuilding and the 3024 lasting a reasonable time. I have seen on here I think where some one swapped a small cummins in . I would only do that if it was for my person use , just my thinking. I have considered buying the loader but have no ideal what it would be worth.
Somebody give me your thoughts on rebuilding.

Thanks for reading

 

[KSSS]

Go to Iron Planet and you can see what they bring, its not much. Those old MTL's don't hold their value when they are running. If you could get it real cheap and you wanted to get it going perhaps you can come out on it. I don't see how your customer can come out on it, they would be paying in repairs what the machine is worth or even upside down in it. That is assuming the undercarriage is decent shape. Depending on that, if it is in poor shape, this could easily be a parts machine.

 

[ifixjunk]

Thanks for replying,
my friend is pretty disgusted with it , but overall I can see where he brought this on his self , did very little maintenance and does't know much at all about mechanical things . He couldn't get any help from Cat and that may be why. The 10 to 12 thousand dollars they wanted sent him in a spin and he landed in wrong places to get the right kind of help. Right now I could get the thing for around 8 thousand maybe , but would have to do a complete engine myself and would have in it about what its worth maybe a little less. most of time you always run into something else and end up upside down on the thing , spend more than you thought always. I could use it , I have a twenty acre track of land in near by state, also live on about 4.3 acres myself. had a New Holland it was handiest wheel barrow a man could have.
I just have to think about it , see where my friend is on selling. I have repaired a lot of his landscape equipment , he has a lot broke down now may be able to work the thing out or some of it. The problem I have found trying to do that with some one is , They have so much in something , they wonder why you would want it if its to much for them to fix , they tend to think your trying to pull one on them, It cost them because they have to pay for parts and labor , you can fix it with parts and your own time, they pay Cat 12 thousand , you buy it fix it for maybe 3 and your unpaid time , they get upset cause you have a 11-12 thousand dollar machine that is running , they have already spent 10 out trying to save money and sell the machine and lose more money , it hard for them to wrap their head around it . Some how they feel they have got cheated and your the one running around on machine they couldn't fix. he has spent 3500 twice to rebuild an engine to other people plus new turbo and other parts , had the thing down 3 yrs, so maybe he has 10 or more , so he could have taken it to cat had his machine running making money all this time , instead of trying to save money or at least found a reliable shop to do a rebuild or replacement for less than Cat. I told him I didn't think I could fix it unless he was willing to pay machine shop cost to check head and block,crank , etc, and new complete overhaul kit , do it right, new oil pump, the works. the first guy that built the engine on start up, had not replaced oil pump , ran it for 40 mins, ruined it, re built it again with new oil pump, installed it back in loader it ran 10 ,hour aprox and down again , said it was turbo, replaced it , never would restart, broke starter trying to get it started , was told it was injectors, , head gasket was blown , took head from original engine installed it , but get this used old head gasket from original engine, was told didn't want to spend any more money , Duh Duh . That is when I was ask to look at it, found out it was hydro locked, blown head gasket and who knows what else. Just finding out A lot of stuff since my first post. Couldn't get much from anyone who work on it or the friend who owns it , because they don't want to own the mess. Found out last time it ran , it lost the turbo , got on engine oil , had to stop it with rag in intake after calling some one and told to remove air cleaner and shove it full of rags to stop air flow. I ask how long that took , 30 seconds I was told , I don't think so , call some one who took awhile to get to phone , tell them what was going on take off air cleaner shove rags in it , after he tried everything else before he called some one , I doubt 30 seconds , so now I figure everything is toast in both blocks, and like I said most likely all I have is a pile of junk engines and need to start completely over. Sorry for rambling on , It makes my head spin in circles wondering what someone is thinking at times ( myself included)

options(1) replacement engine (2) rebuild (3) Yard Art (4) Come get Your Junk (5) Buy It Option 3 till option 2
Thanks have a great day , I know your heads are spinnin too


( The thing about working by yourself is there is no one else to blame for the mistakes )

 

[Bison]

Option 5.

I have 3 of these engines. 1 is running in a ASV 4810,.New Perkins engine with 700 hrs on it,..no problems so far.
I have the original cat/perkins engine in my shop,.. The balancer bolts came loose and the whole shebang broke in pieces incl oil pump.rest of the parts are good.
I got a second engine out of a parts machine,..it spun the center main bearing and seized a piston.
Both engines are rebuildable but repairing the main on the one alone is 1500 pop and a new balancer and oil pump another 2-3 grand,...not worth it.
I have a rebuild kit and planning on making 1 engine using best parts of both.

If i had know all this about these cat engines before buying the CTL i would've left it where it was.

 

[KSSS]

Wow........if it were me I would walk away. The machine simply is not worth it. Your customer needs to walk away from it and consider it a lesson learned. CAT is not going to help. There are thousands of these motors that have blown. I know one guy here that got CAT to pay for a new motor. Certainly there are others I am sure, but if it is out of warranty and you don't have a yard full of CAT equipment, they are not likely to do anything for you (I am not dogging CAT, no other OEM would either). These MTL's cost money to run, motor issues aside. It is not a machine to own in my opinion for a home owner. It is hard enough when your a contractor and you actually make money with it to offset some off the costs.

 

[ifixjunk]

Thanks for your reply, I think your pretty much on the mark. After I looked at some prices at Iron Planet and others I have to say I pretty much agree with you . There seems to be a lot of difference in asking prices which is normal, but it looks like 12 to 15 for a machine in the same shape as one I have sitting here. If you factor in the real cost of an engine 4k plus even on reman is lowest I could find. You have to pay installation unless you can do it your self. So it really does add up to more than its worth.
I have looked at the 4bt *** mins swap on here and if I was going to buy it I might consider that because I have zero confidence in the 3024 in a 257b . Besides the factory flaws , I think in general its just not enough engine for the loader. Most loaders take a beating from workers who don't care because they aren't paying the bill. others seem to just land in hard places to work. Thats been my experience but most of my work has been in WV which is basically rock with a little dirt.
All of the above considered unless a man could get it dirt cheap and do all the work himself . And I mean dirt cheap. He was offered 7k for it the way it sits , maybe he should take it and cut his losses , 7k on a new machine if he wants one I don't know. I could do all the work myself but don't really see putting even 7k in it and all the ti So I guess its OPTION (4) Come get your junk.
One other thing I was told you had to have boom all the way up before cooler and radiator would raise far enough to latch in place when working on it, surely that is just on this one machine, something out of line.

Thanks have a great one guys

 

[U8u812]

Hello, new to forum, but have read a lot here. Very informative.

My Cat 226 with the 3034 just died with 1400 hours, well maintained and owner driven since new. I see from this thread I am not alone.

My machine is in very good shape otherwise, so it probably is worth fixing.

Has anyone repowered with a Perkins 804? (Cat 3044). I was also considering the Perkins 104-22, have one of these in my chipper, think it might fit better.

Has anyone figured how to move one of these machines with a dead engine?

 

[ifixjunk]

Sorry to hear you've joined the group of us who have Perkins that Puked. lol. I still have one sitting in my yard waiting for owner to come pick it up and scrap it probably.
As far as moving the machine Cat told me they pick them up with a large loader or fork lift and move them in and out of shop when not running. Said not to pull them very far because you can damage undercarriage or Pump. I told them that really leaves the average guy with a lot of choices. They also said not to pull side ways or at an angle.
They suggested getting a rollback to pick it up and winch it up on bed then side it off where ever you want to unload it. That's what we did. The one I have is a 2005 257b about 1500 hrs I have been told. Its been through the ringer from the looks of it.
I don't know what yr you have but most have an oil pump problem, and head gasket problem from the factory, hopefully yours may be under warranty and you can get some help but don't hold your breath from what I have read on here. Apparently Cat wants something like 10-12 grand for replacement or rebuild, again just going by what i have been told. You may be ahead of some of us I just noticed you have a 3034, most of the bad ones here have been 3024's.not sure that the oil pump and head gasket is a problem with them, but I would check. There a loads of guys on here with way more knowedge than I have .I am sure they will be weighing in to try to help you out. It would be a good ideal to state exactly what went on when engine failed , smoked , sounds, it made , did turbo blow if it has one , Is it out of machine , did it throw a rod ,etc. Is it rebuildable, I think some one will ask most of those questions.

Good Luck,
(the problem with working by yourself is you don't have anyone to blame for the screw ups , you have to own em ) :Banghead

If I get a chance before the 257b leaves here I am going to look at what needs to be done to release the tracks so it can be moved, if I come up with anything I will post it

 

[U8u812]

Thanks for the reply. Just got in from starting to unbolt the motor.

Mine is a 3034(Perkins 704), non turbo, in a 2000 Cat 226. I have maintained it since new with Cat fluids and filters, following suggested maintenance schedule. I do my own machine and truck maintenance and repairs, have for decades. Apparently the 3034s had an oil pump problem similar to the 3024s. Too old to be under warranty.

I noticed the oil alarm may have stayed on a few more beeps at start up when starting cold far a while, always stopped way before I ever moved the machine. Other than that, it made a bit of a clattering noise and stopped dead when I was loading granite stair tread at medium RPMs. The motor no longer turns freely, it will go 90 or so degrees either way and it binds up.

The rebuilds apparently are the same bad design as the original, so I hesitate to put in the same motor at $8-10K. That is why I am considering a 804/3044. It is what they are using now, and is a Mitsubishi I think.

 

[U8u812]

Have the motor out and in the shop. The #2 bearing is spun and the oil pump housing is broken. No other damage I can see. Motor will spin around now (I think the oil pump gear was binding), cylinder walls look good, valves work.

I can get the crank, bearings, oil pump & gaskets for under $3k from Cat dealer. Or I can put in the 3044 mentioned in post above for around $6K. It is new surplus & should generally fit, but some modifications will be needed to fit in this machine. I can do either job myself, I suspect putting the new, non spec 3044 will take at least twice as long, but is a new motor.

Have been wondering which way to go.

 

[KSSS]

Something to consider, going back with a nonstandard engine is going to have a negative effect on resale, especially if you have to fabricate your way into making the nonstandard engine to work. I would fix the original engine as cheaply as possible and get out of it. Trade it, sell it, whatever it takes to own something else.

 

[U8u812]

That is probably good advice. But am not concerned with resale value, it is not worth that much, it is 15 years old. I know its hour count is correct and it has been well maintained since new. Hydraulics are clean, etc.

All the new stuff has electronic engine management DEF, DER, Regen cycles or whatever. Looking at my new mini skid with a 35 HP tier 4 yanmar, makes this old puking perkins look simple.

Just want to put a motor back in that will get another 1,000 hours or so. Since this machine will mainly be in yard from now on, that should be over 10 years, by that time, it will probably not be a major concern.

 

[Wes J]

Don't bother with a new crank. Find a good machine shop and they can grind yours or even weld it and grind it if needed. Expect to pay $300-400 for that service. Then you just need undersize main bearings. The oil pump might be a good part to source from Cat/Perkins, but the rest I would pick up on the aftermarket.

Let's say one 8 hour day to pull the motor and strip the bottom end of the motor. Couple weeks for the machine shop and parts to come in. One 8 hour day to reassemble the bottom end and go ahead to set the valves. 4 hours to reinstall the motor. So, 20 hours x $75/hour = $1500. $400 for the crank work, $300 for the bearings, seals, gaskets, etc. Oil, coolant, etc maybe $200.

So, I would think you could rebuild the bottom end of that motor for $2500 complete, including labor but not counting the oil pump because I have no idea what that might cost. At least, that's probably what I would charge...

 

[U8u812]

The #2 crank journal is so scored, I figured it could not be ground. The connecting rod and bearing cap changed color, like they got very hot, probably should check for distortion. I did not know cranks could be welded on & reground, thanks for the info.

The other journals are in good shape, the bearings are still good. My guess is a piece of oil pump clogged the oil hole on #2. The fact the rest of the motor is in such good shape is why I'd consider the rebuild. When I took it apart, I fully expected a thrown rod or something.

The oil pump is about $350.

 

[Wes J]

Yes the crank can be welded. I just did it on a Perkins. They will grind all the journals after welding, so you will have to use undersize rod bearings. They might also grind the mains depending on wear and if the crank warps when welding.

Most likely you need to source a new rod if it got hot. The rod bearing bore is likely no longer round. Sometimes they can be honed to make them round again, but it depends how the rod is made. The last Perkins I did had serrated surfaces where the cap bolts to the rod and they could not be ground and therefore could not be honed, but mine were in good shape.

Sounds like $3000 could have that motor running.

 

[U8u812]

Thanks for the reply. I talked to a machinist this morning and he said the crank could probably be welded & ground, and also the connecting rod would be trashed. It is multi-colored, like an old case hardened gun.

According to the repair manual, there were 3 different lengths of connecting rod that were selected when engine was assembled. Pretty tight piston height tolerances I guess.

He also strongly recommended I tear down and tank the whole motor due to the metal shavings that would be in the oil passages.

If I have to go that far, jamming the 3044 in there starts to look easier. The main job with that is the intake and exhaust are on opposite sides from the 3034, and front motor mounts have to be fabricated. It is supposed to bolt right up to the pump & rear motor mounts.