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310a slow hydraulics help

ala.millwright

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Jun 24, 2009
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Excel, AL
Hey atco I think you and bentwrench may both be right! I'm looking at maybe pressure control valve could be part of problem but why would main pump get so hot? I'm going to check my lines going to and from oil cooler because it doesn't seem to be getting as hot as pump. Like its not coolling any oil.at least its good to know I don't have to spend $850 for a worn out control valve. Gonna try to test reverser presure tomorow.I finaly found fitting I need to hook up my gauge up I Think
 

ala.millwright

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Hey atco I think we getting it narrowed down! Finally got to test charge pressure at reverser. I've got 155psi which is what its supposed to have now as I said earlier I've only got like 60 to 80 psi at main pump so I'm losing like 90 psi between reverser and main pump.I think I've got a relief valve either weak or stuck between these two. What do you or anybody think??
 

willie59

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Didn't go back and review posts; didn't you say the reverser was working properly? On the 410, after the oil leaves the charge pump it goes to the hyd filter, and there is a relief in the filter for hi-flow situations like rapidly working the backhoe boom.
 

ala.millwright

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Yes the reverser is working properly. on the filter for hyd main pump does oil go through filter before ut goes to pump or after it leaves it? I'm thinking it goes through before but not sure because I can't get in my head how oil flows in relation to filter for charge pump.
 

willie59

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Yes the reverser is working properly. on the filter for hyd main pump does oil go through filter before ut goes to pump or after it leaves it? I'm thinking it goes through before but not sure because I can't get in my head how oil flows in relation to filter for charge pump.

Don't know on your machine. I'm hoping my Deere dealer can come up with some info, I'm going to contact him again first of the week. Did you look at that PDF I sent you? It shows a flow diagram, is yours anything like it?
 

ala.millwright

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I did get file but couldn't print it because off printer problems going to try to get it today. If I remember right it shows oil lines on what would be left hand side if sitting in seat mine is not like this all are on right side but oil probally flows to same compontants regardless of piping. I just pulled reilef valves out of trans and main pump filters but didn't find any trash.
 

willie59

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Hey atco I think we getting it narrowed down! Finally got to test charge pressure at reverser. I've got 155psi which is what its supposed to have now as I said earlier I've only got like 60 to 80 psi at main pump so I'm losing like 90 psi between reverser and main pump.I think I've got a relief valve either weak or stuck between these two. What do you or anybody think??


Are you certain your checking charge pump pressure at main pump? Is it supposed to be 155 charge pressure at main pump? Sounds like the 155 is to provide pressure to engage the clutch packs, but is it possible that the main pump doesn't need that much charge pressure? I don't know. Is it possible the reverser circuit also performs pressure regulating of pressure going to feed main pump. And I could be out in left field with this. :D
 

ala.millwright

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Yep you're right! I went back to john deere website you provided in you're first post and it says charge pressure is 55 to 135 psi at main pump.
 

willie59

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Yep you're right! I went back to john deere website you provided in you're first post and it says charge pressure is 55 to 135 psi at main pump.

If that's the case, and the flow goes from charge pump, to reverser, then an outlet line from reverser to supply main pump at a lower pressure; then there must be some form of pressure reducing valve in the reverser. They work similar to a pressure relief valve, but gererally aren't as restrictive when they open and dump fluid as a relief valve usually is. I doubt your problem is there. Given we lack specific info for your machine, I think one method we could try is taking advantage of the heat generation. Start the machine and feel the line coming from charge pump for heat. The go to reverser lines, then line out of reverser to main pump. Basically go through the system trying to find which component has a line/lines cool coming in but warm/hot going out. Once you've gone over all the components, start over from the beginning. Logically, you'll eventually find a component thats producing heat in an output line. If you find that, you've probably found your problem area. Just a thought. ;)
 

ala.millwright

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That's a good idea atco! However I've bout lost all my hydro fluid from pulling filters and reilef valves so before I fill it back up I'm gonna pull priorty valve and check the spool inside. I got some information from another website that leads me to believe I may have some issue there. But I don't think that's where all my problem is.
 

willie59

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The priority valve is, for sure, one of the suspects. But it would have to be the relief in the priority valve. A failure of o-rings on the relief or failure of the relief that caused leakage would generate heat. Remember this, in hydraulics, resistance to flow causes two things; pressure and heat. Imagine a hydrostat dozer on a fifty mile straight push with the blade full. With every minute the dozer is pushing the load in the blade, the load is resisting oil flowing freely through the drive motors, it's taking horsepower to turn the drive motors. Therefore, the pressure is going to be high on the drive circuit because flow is being resisted. Likewise, this energy (resistance to flow) is going to create heat. Without an oil cooler, the poor thing would soon melt to the ground. Now consider this, your system is a closed center valve system. Meaning, when no functions are being operated, no oil is flowing, all oil paths are a dead end. The engine is running, the pump develops flow, but since all paths are a dead end, pressure goes up, until it reaches "standby pressure", then the pump destrokes and holds that pressure. Now, no oil is flowing, no heat is being generated. Now, lets have a failure of an o-ring that seals the relief valve in the priority valve. Now there's a very small (restrictive) passage for the oil to flow out of this closed system, and flow back to tank or wherever. The oil is now flowing, the pump strokes a bit to try and maintain the standby pressure, and the oil is flowing through a restrictive passage. You guessed it...heat. I can't say for sure that's what your machine is doing...just using logic to figure out a system that neither of us are experts about. Man I'm going to shut up for a minute. :D
 

OCR

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slow hydraulics help:

ATCOEQUIP... I think that was one of the finest descriptions, about the workings of a hydraulic system, I have ever read... excellent!!... :thumbsup


OCR
 

willie59

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ATCOEQUIP... I think that was one of the finest descriptions, about the workings of a hydraulic system, I have ever read... excellent!!... :thumbsup


OCR


OCR...you are killing me! I should be in bed right now...but I am having so much fun here talking to the likes of you...I'll probably be late for work in the morning! Dang you on Mountain Time! :D Naw...I'll get up! Thanks for the kind words. :)
 

willie59

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Hey bama-mill, I keep forgetting to contact my Deere dealer when I get to work. (banghead). Sent myself an email reminder to do it first of the week.

But let's go over what we know about the machine. We know it's a closed center hyd circuit and should have around 2,300 lbs standby pressure on the pump output line when no functions are being operated. We know the pump has been replaced and caused no change, so it's least logical to be a pump problem. We know we are generating heat, most probable cause is internal passage of oil around a failed component or seal. All we have to do is find where the leakage is happening. First, though, have you put a pressure gauge on the pump output to verify standby pressure? Moving on, it would be nice if we knew how the fluid routes on your machine. If it's anything like the 410 circuit, fluid leaves charge pump to feed main pump (I know you've said it does a reverser connection in here, but it sounds like it's working properly), leaves main pump to feed priority valve. It goes several directions from here; loader valve, backhoe valve, steering orbit valve, aux valve (if equipped), and main pressure relief valve going back to charge pump circuit. That "relief line is the first line I would feel for getting hot. But if you don't want to take the time to wait, take this line loose from the priority valve and plug the hose fitting. It would be nice if you had a hose you could put on the priority valve fitting and drop the hose in a bucket. Start the engine, there should be no oil coming out of the priority valve fitting. Do the same to the other valves. Locate the "T" port fitting (the return line going out of valve body). Plug the hose fitting, run engine and see how much oil leaks out of the T port. A very very small amout would be acceptable, normal leakage around spools, but it should be a very small amount, not even a little stream. I know it might be a pain to do some of these valves, but you should be able to narrow down where the problem is by doing this.
 

ala.millwright

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Hey guys has anyone ever rebuilt the priorty valve on one of these tractors? On the inside of valve there is spool and inside of spool there is a reilef poppet, a washer\shim and a spring. I beilive this washer has become flattened somewhat and maybe binding on the inside of spool. I went to my local deere company to get a new washer and they are telling me in order to get it I've got to buy spool, poppet and washer as a kit. Has anyone ever replaced just this washer. I wouldnt think these would have to be a matched set but not for sure.
 

willie59

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If it fixed your machine, I would go ahead an purchase the components. Don't feel bad, I needed two cartridge valves for a Komatsu D41E-6 blade control valve. A load sensing valve cartridge and a flow regulator valve cartidge. They are not sold seperately. You have got to be kidding me! Cartridge valves that aren't sold seperately! Had to purchase the whole control valve body...$3,700.00. :eek: It fixed the machine...but...ouch!
 

ala.millwright

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Jun 24, 2009
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Excel, AL
Well guys its been a rough past couple years here for my family and I so backhoe was put on hold. It's just my tinker toy.
If anyone has any other ideas about this Hydraulic problem I'm all ears. Mr atco last suggestion was try to chase down heat source. Been tinkering with it here and there. Cranked up it yesterday idled it up worked all the functions for a bit and main pump, priorty valve and reverser got hot. Did about 2hrs worth of pushing dirt up then hauling it and dumping in a pile. Used the backhoe part maybe 15 minutes within the first hour out of the 2hrs. When I parked it all hydraulic parts were hot. Dipperstick and bucket cylinders, main boom cylinder all the cylinders on the loader. Main pumpwas very hot as was priority valve and reverser. Now I would expect the loader and bucket cylinders to be hotter than the ones for the backhoe because it was hardly used and not used at all for the last hour of operation. Now I said all that to setup my question. If this hydraulic system is closed center why were all the backhoe cylinders hot? How can i find the source of the heat when everything is getting hot?
 

HarrisEquipment

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Got a look at that book tonight. I was out chasing balers tonight so I stopped by the shop and pick it up. Here's a description of the circuit diagram for S/N 161723 and later
Oil is picked up from the suction screen and sent to the Transmission Oil Filter, before the filter there is a Transmission Filter Relief Valve and an Oil Cooler Relief Valve. From there the filtered oil is sent to the Front Mounted Hyd Pump and the oil cooler.
High pressure oil is then sent to a Junction Block, then to an Accumulator, Pressure control valve and the Backhoe Valve. Oil from the Pressure Control Valve is then sent to Steering Valve, Brakes, Differential Lock and the Loader Valve.
The oil returning from the Backhoe Valve and Loader valve is considered Low pressure oil and is routed to a Surge Relief Valve. The oil then travels to either the High Pressure pump or back to sump. Some of the Low pressure oil is also sent to the Return Oil Filter where there is another Surge Valve and a Filter Relief Valve.

The pressure at the test port in the Pressure Control Valve should be 1400 psi at 1000 rpm when using a non-priority function.

For a leakage test it says to run engine at 1800 rpm with hyd controls in neutral and check for heating on the return lines. If a valve within a function is leaking the line will be to hot to touch. I would do this test first thing when the machine is cold.

There are other tests but they require a flow meter.

I hope this helps,
 
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