Good old Iron versus new stuff

[td25c]

Thought about this thread today while moving # 3 Grove crane to a couple job sites .

1973 model rig . Detroit 6 - 71 noise all the way

Set some light poles at a waste water treatment plant in the morning and a grain auger at the end of the day for a farmer .

Still takin care of business … Bachman Turner Overdrive 1973 . LOL

 

[RZucker]

Looks like you had a De-rate on that last hill... Did you fill your DEF tank before the trip?

 

[td25c]

Looks like you had a De-rate on that last hill... Did you fill your DEF tank before the trip?

That's the auto shift function on the hill . Pretty complex system . Uses a " Grey Matter " computer chip .

I just set in the seat & let the machine do it's thing .

Is that DEF some kind of fancy beer ?
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/43244/298227/

 

[RZucker]

That's the auto shift function on the hill . Pretty complex system . Uses a " Grey Matter " computer chip .

I just set in the seat & let the machine do it's thing .

Is that DEF some kind of fancy beer ?
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/43244/298227/

Having the same ECM controlling the engine and trans is a good idea.

 

[squid_wood777]

How true is that "uses grey matter for the computer ".All this crap of having computers controling everything,let the greatest computer of all control the machine the operators brain if they are good operators and know machines is all that is needed.I remember when electric over hydraulic first came to Australia i was working for a great company called Roche Bros the family stilled owened them and they had the biggest fleet of Cat 245s in the southern hemisphere and we had the oldest one and the newest one and being the new bloke i got the oldest and i cant remember how many hours it had done but it had done alot of hardrock work and it actually didnt go too bad a bit slow but it could still break out rock and you could feel what was goin on.One day the bloke on the new one asked me if i wanted a drive and naturally i did,well i went to pull the dipper in and fill the bucket and because of the lack of feeling in the sticks the dipper stop dead because it was hard going and the digger shot foward until about half of my tracks were hanging over the face so after recovering from that i gently pushed myself back onto the bench and tried filling the bucket which the old girl done alot easier than the new one.
After talking to the Cat fitter who was there for the first few days with the new 245,he basically said the new electric bullshit was to save abit of fuel.
I was checking out stats for the 637K trying to get some idea what the 57K may be like and its got settings for loading and dumping so basically all the operators have to do is steer and how much can go wrong with that much **** on them is unbelievable.
Its getting out of control very fast with all this fancy "do the operators work for them" bullshit and if you want to put a full day in and not breakdown put up with being a little uncomfortable maybe then your always going to grab an old B or D or E .
,

 

[squid_wood777]

I forgot to say about the new operators coming through.They will know how to operate the new stuff no doubt,but what happens if like Sukut,Indys and a few others who still run alot of the older stuff they break down and are asked to jump on another machine and it happens to be one you have to load yourself and unload yourself.
The only way around this is the companies are goin to have to teach people how to operate both and no doubt the good smart ones will but there will no doubt be others that wont.
I can fully understand having load settings for doing cuts that are getting close to finish that may be handy but then again we used to have the dozer and grader ops sought that out.The main thing of course is its stopping operators from learning the skills of knowing how to cut properly and dump a layer at the required height.Of course if this stuff can all be turned off and only used if you want then thats great but i couldnt find anything saying that and its probably a case of thats how the machine comes so you have to put up with it.I know it may sound like im just sooking about progress but scrapers are my fav machine and i really think besides a few good things as far as operator comfort goes,they can keep the rest im still trying to get over no more V12s or V8s but i accept that it was a pollution law for the states and naturally Cat aint going to build one for home and another for the rest of the world.

 

[td25c]

Good points Mate !

What's up with the new vehicles on the road ? There used to be a time where ya could spot a Mopar , Chevy or Ford from a distance .

They all look the same to me now up close . " probably an aging thing "

I'm gonna ride it out old school with ignition points & carburetor's .

 

[squid_wood777]

Good points Mate !

What's up with the new vehicles on the road ? There used to be a time where ya could spot a Mopar , Chevy or Ford from a distance .

They all look the same to me now up close . " probably an aging thing "

I'm gonna ride it out old school with ignition points & carburetor's .

Once upon a time you liked the look of your car it was different from others and had character.If your car breaks down now a "Technician"with a laptop comes along,if you tried to find out yourself you would be there allday and still not find it.I know that the new stuff can be very good when its all running right,but if it goes pear shaped....

 

[squid_wood777]

Just been watching some serious scraper action on Socal earthmovers and beside the fact that Sukut Indys Peed Coburn and a few others own more 57s in just their own companies than id say what there is in just about all of Australia,Piacentini is the biggest scraper fleet down here and theyve probably got 40 or so now,they had alot more but got rid of alot of their old Bs which is what gets me about the above mentioned USA companies they still have alot of 57bs and 51bs earning them money and keeping blokes in jobs.I know theyve all got new motors because of the pollution laws but if that doesnt show you how good the old stuff still is to still be going around after how many years.I ve read comments about comfort and seriously the older ones ride smoother i reckon and theres the open cab bit and ive always been surprised about how many open cab scrapers and dozers there are over there.I was very surprised years ago when i saw my first vid from over there,open cab 9ns and rs pushing scoops.I know its California but it must get on the cool side sometimes and the dust would s^$€ you tone man who has a really good fleet of 57Bs and 51Bs is John Mitzel (hope thats spelt right)he has some beauties and can anyone tell me what happened to his uncle or grandfather Ralph he had a big fleet of 51bs 57bs and 660s amongst everything else.Was he one of the guys who couldnt afford to change to the new motors and just sold out or shut down.An absolute shame if that was the case.

 

[Ronsii]

Saw this baby going down the road on my way home the other day.

sorry about the reflections, was shooting through the windscreen.

 

[StanRUS]

I forgot to say about the new operators coming through.They will know how to operate the new stuff no doubt,but what happens if like Sukut,Indys and a few others who still run alot of the older stuff they break down and are asked to jump on another machine and it happens to be one you have to load yourself and unload yourself.
The only way around this is the companies are goin to have to teach people how to operate both and no doubt the good smart ones will but there will no doubt be others that wont.
I can fully understand having load settings for doing cuts that are getting close to finish that may be handy but then again we used to have the dozer and grader ops sought that out.The main thing of course is its stopping operators from learning the skills of knowing how to cut properly and dump a layer at the required height.Of course if this stuff can all be turned off and only used if you want then thats great but i couldnt find anything saying that and its probably a case of thats how the machine comes so you have to put up with it.I know it may sound like im just sooking about progress but scrapers are my fav machine and i really think besides a few good things as far as operator comfort goes,they can keep the rest im still trying to get over no more V12s or V8s but i accept that it was a pollution law for the states and naturally Cat aint going to build one for home and another for the rest of the world.

Operator can shut off the auto features and most grade control features are optional when spec-ing the machine @ purchase.
Cat Grade Control

Coburn has, 44 57Es for rentals. Mitzel, John does not want to scratch the paint off his 51Bs and wanted circa 2014 $5.00 per hour less than the going rate for 57E, Gs plus better tire wear deal! 660s restored; D346, D343 powered means they can't be used in Calif and soon most US states. ACI (Altfillisch est: 1946) was an early engine updater using DDA 60series engine with Jake brake to repowered 22 660s. ACi has moved over 500,000,000 cubic yards in 25 years. Independent-TGI purchased a few 657Gs recently. Sukut 51Bs? Will require up Tiered engines to continue Calif usage (ditto all outfits with Tier 3 engines). Each machine repowered with gov grant funds is a separate contract with the state of Calif and must be used in the state for 7 years @ 2,000hrs per year or be fined. Sukut, Peed, are bidding jobs in other US states.

Sure 51-57Bs with electronic engines, open ROPS are simple, easy to keep in the dirt. Customer got largest job (35million plus) close to my home base. 51Bs with DDA engines, single push with D10s and bunch of TS24B Terex push-pulls. Operators and open ROPS,if they want to work fine, in not F-them! As my dad would tell them, 'if you ass dose not fit the seat, someone else's will'! Winters not a big deal, summer @ 40C that is not fun!

 

[squid_wood777]

Operator can shut off the auto features and most grade control features are optional when spec-ing the machine @ purchase.
Cat Grade Control

Coburn has, 44 57Es for rentals. Mitzel, John does not want to scratch the paint off his 51Bs and wanted circa 2014 $5.00 per hour less than the going rate for 57E, Gs plus better tire wear deal! 660s restored; D346, D343 powered means they can't be used in Calif and soon most US states. ACI (Altfillisch est: 1946) was an early engine updater using DDA 60series engine with Jake brake to repowered 22 660s. ACi has moved over 500,000,000 cubic yards in 25 years. Independent-TGI purchased a few 657Gs recently. Sukut 51Bs? Will require up Tiered engines to continue Calif usage (ditto all outfits with Tier 3 engines). Each machine repowered with gov grant funds is a separate contract with the state of Calif and must be used in the state for 7 years @ 2,000hrs per year or be fined. Sukut, Peed, are bidding jobs in other US states.

Sure 51-57Bs with electronic engines, open ROPS are simple, easy to keep in the dirt. Customer got largest job (35million plus) close to my home base. 51Bs with DDA engines, single push with D10s and bunch of TS24B Terex push-pulls. Operators and open ROPS,if they want to work fine, in not F-them! As my dad would tell them, 'if you ass dose not fit the seat, someone else's will'! Winters not a big deal, summer @ 40C that is not fun!

Thanks for that Stan.I seen the clip of the 660s coming of the hill with the detriots and jakes they sounded excellent.So Suket has some money to spend if they want to keep their 51Bs goin.Theyve got one or two of them as well.I didnt realise just how hard it is for Contractors over there its not as easy as just getting rid of the old motors they are only allowed to put certain motors back in and its huge $$$$.Any idea what happened to old Ralph Mitzel Stan,didnt want to play the game maybe?22 660s is awesome for moving big dirt over a distance and ACIs are the only ones with them now.Your Dad was right somebody out there that doesnt mind and wants a job.Seen that article on the 37K that you can turn all that technical stuff off and thats a great thing.The Articles i read didnt mention that.One thing id like you to explain if its not to much trouble is these tier motors never heard of them down here they arent the acert motors are they.

 

[Birken Vogt]

D346, D343 powered means they can't be used in Calif and soon most US states.

I had not heard of any other state doing this same nonsense, which states are coming next?

 

[StanRUS]

I had not heard of any other state doing this same nonsense, which states are coming next?

Some areas of Texas require Tier1 or newer. Dallas-Houston area they just shut off using the equipment until working out a program, circa 2010?. I don't remember the exact date; had to research emission regulations before shipping equipment to mid Texas in 2013. Fed, State contracts in Oklahoma Tiered engines. Other states have repower programs via grants similar to Calif. Calif has 35 air quality management districts, you could end up with job in two different districts.
Ralph's 660s sat @ my buddies storage area for 4 years. Then went to this job in Nevada. Fast forward to 4:30. 660s @ just under 45mph.
I assume Ralph's fun bag is full and basically he's retired, his equipment yard is full of equipment about 10km from my place. ACI yard is in the opposite direction about 6km, they've sold the property for housing development. Scraped equipment for 10 years.

 

[Birken Vogt]

What is wrong with the people of Texas that they allow the importation of these nonsensical regulations. I was going to use Texas as an example of a place that would never happen. And Oklahoma, isn't that already a poor state? Why would they choose to slow their economy even more?

They need to work on repealing these dumb standards. Not making them even more entrenched and widespread.

 

[squid_wood777]

Some areas of Texas require Tier1 or newer. Dallas-Houston area they just shut off using the equipment until working out a program, circa 2010?. I don't remember the exact date; had to research emission regulations before shipping equipment to mid Texas in 2013. Fed, State contracts in Oklahoma Tiered engines. Other states have repower programs via grants similar to Calif. Calif has 35 air quality management districts, you could end up with job in two different districts.
Ralph's 660s sat @ my buddies storage area for 4 years. Then went to this job in Nevada. Fast forward to 4:30. 660s @ just under 45mph.
I assume Ralph's fun bag is full and basically he's retired, his equipment yard is full of equipment about 10km from my place. ACI yard is in the opposite direction about 6km, they've sold the property for housing development. Scraped equipment for 10 years.

You live in a great area Stan i would be real pleased if it was me just to be able to see them in the yard i guess uz blokes over there just get used of it especially the big 6 wheelers.

 

[StanRUS]

I had not heard of any other state doing this same nonsense, which states are coming next?

What other states? All 50 per EPA and receiving federal highway funds.
Texas is similar to Calif.
https://www.tceq.texas.gov/assets/public/.../FY18_NonRoad_Stationary_TechSupp.pdf

 

[old-iron-habit]

Some areas of Texas require Tier1 or newer. Dallas-Houston area they just shut off using the equipment until working out a program, circa 2010?. I don't remember the exact date; had to research emission regulations before shipping equipment to mid Texas in 2013. Fed, State contracts in Oklahoma Tiered engines. Other states have repower programs via grants similar to Calif. Calif has 35 air quality management districts, you could end up with job in two different districts.
Ralph's 660s sat @ my buddies storage area for 4 years. Then went to this job in Nevada. Fast forward to 4:30. 660s @ just under 45mph.
I assume Ralph's fun bag is full and basically he's retired, his equipment yard is full of equipment about 10km from my place. ACI yard is in the opposite direction about 6km, they've sold the property for housing development. Scraped equipment for 10 years.

Are these 660s going to be allowed to be sold, or are they going to be cut up because the CA taxpayers will be paying them huge dividends to destroy them. A friend had to pay her employer $7,000.00 over value to save a one of a kind JD high crop tractor from the scrap heap, This was due to tax incentives from the state that the rest of the taxpayers needs to make up.

 

[StanRUS]

Are these 660s going to be allowed to be sold, or are they going to be cut up because the CA taxpayers will be paying them huge dividends to destroy them.

The 660s (or B model scrapers) don't have to be sold or cut up. Keeping the fleet average requirement 1) by adding Tier 4 equipment (example new dozers) 2) repowering with Tier 4 intermin/final engines.
Example: Sukut's nephew is using Tier 3 repowered 51Bs and new D10Ts to meet a fleet average of Tier4 intermin.
ACI cut up Euclid-Terex 6 wheel scrapers and older non tier Cat equip etc to gain fleet credits.
Calif-ARB has backed off (flexible) the 2000 hour per year usage requirement on repowered equipment working with owners they have partnered with.
Calif dirt work is cut-throat competitive; contractors are 'buying' jobs by under bidding the job engineers' estimates. Example Sukut underbid the next phase of the Bowerman landfill job (Irvine, Calif county job) by 50% ($7million).

 

[RZucker]

Some areas of Texas require Tier1 or newer. Dallas-Houston area they just shut off using the equipment until working out a program, circa 2010?. I don't remember the exact date; had to research emission regulations before shipping equipment to mid Texas in 2013. Fed, State contracts in Oklahoma Tiered engines. Other states have repower programs via grants similar to Calif. Calif has 35 air quality management districts, you could end up with job in two different districts.
Ralph's 660s sat @ my buddies storage area for 4 years. Then went to this job in Nevada. Fast forward to 4:30. 660s @ just under 45mph.
I assume Ralph's fun bag is full and basically he's retired, his equipment yard is full of equipment about 10km from my place. ACI yard is in the opposite direction about 6km, they've sold the property for housing development. Scraped equipment for 10 years.

Honestly, I would love to try out one of those 660's for a day or two, just to see if I still have it. Biggest I've been on was a 657B and at those speeds they beat you up.