Good old Iron versus new stuff

[td25c]

Thanks for the comparison run down on the two machines John .

That's interesting looking at the data & options then crunching the $ numbers on the two tractors .

We lived pretty close to the Nebraska Tractor test track back in the early 1970's

Was a treat to walk over with the Old Man & watch them running a tractor though the test facility .

https://tractortestlab.unl.edu/

They used to test dozers back in the day when the track was dirt . Would have been an interesting place to work .

Test on a Cat D7 from 1956 .
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2101&context=tractormuseumlit

 

[td25c]

Thanks TD. That's ALDOT dense grade base. It goes through a pug mill, mostly 3/4 crush with #4's and slurry. DGB is the spec for base under paving.

We worked a job years ago where the paving contractor was hauling in " Pug Mill " stone . Got to talking to him & the way he described it was like mixing concrete with exact proportions of stone & fines along with water % in it .

Trucks would spread it out & contractor could rock & roll with the grader & roller .

Most of our jobs go with # 53's for stone drive ways & roads . They are not as consistent as the " Pug Mill " . Some loads will have a lot of fines & others more coarse aggregate . Some are dry & dusty others are damp depending on conditions at the quarry .

End result have to run over it with an orange 4 cylinder " Chug Mill " .

That last batch was wet with a lot of fines . It set up pretty tight .

 

[Birken Vogt]

Average calculated fuel consumption is 6 gallons per hour. Undercarriage costs in today dollars is book calculated at $8.40 per hour.

Average calculated fuel consumption is 7.75 gallons per hour and the undercarriage costs in today dollars is book calculated at $14.73 per hour.

The D6T Tier 4 generally in these calculations is the hands down winner in horsepower, drawbar pull, fuel usage, hydraulic function, fuel usage and undercarriage costs. There is a lot more to ownership costs than what I have stated here but these for the most part show a trend.

Well those are some compelling numbers. Now we need to somehow put a dollar value on engine repairs and unscheduled downtime including waiting for a qualified mechanic to show up to do something specialized with tier 4 or some of the fancy electronics. I imagine this is highly variable depending on distance from a major city.

 

[td25c]

Customer had a bad experience with a 2015 model JD 4066M utility tractor .

They bought it new in 2015 .

They shelled out $ 32,000 for it .

https://www.tractorhouse.com/listin...-to-99-hp/manufacturer/john-deere/model/4066m

Smoked the engine last year on it . Now this was operator error all the way !

Feller was bush hogging & somehow busted a water hose & ran it to meltdown .

JD dealer said cost to replace engine is $ 28,000

Hang on a second …. The whole little pizz ant tractor cost $ 32,000 to begin with .

That Dog Don't Hunt !

You cant make this stuff up .

 

[John C.]

Birken...Good points. I used what a sales rep would throw at a potential customer. So far though, from my experience with the local Cat dealer, in the first 5,000 hours the warranty occurrences on dozers hasn't changed a whole lot between now and 1989. Once you get over 5,000 I haven't seen any numbers compiled that would give an indication either way. I know that since Product Link was required of the dealer network that they are now being compiled. The owners and potential buyers will never be able to see a number that can be trusted. Last I saw from Cat was that it was still cost effective to rebuild a dozer between 10,000 and 12,000 hours. I have had a D7F in a fleet years ago and not it would never go that many hours without at least an engine rebuild at around 8,000 with good maintenance. The jury is still out on the C9.3 with the furnace and chemical factory bolted to the top of the engine.

 

[squid_wood777]

Theres a major contractor here in western australia who runs both 57Es and Gs and talking to one of their operators one day he told me the company werent too impressed with the Gs as no one wanted to operate them when on clay as they were alot rougher than the E and the other was because they are a 6 cylinder and not a large one,to get the H.P out of them the fuel is fair shot threw them and this apparently wears things out quicker and the company had already rebuilt a couple of motors with not that many hours done.

 

[td25c]

Any thoughts on this Cat D7E John C ?

https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/26906499/cat-d7

If that rig checked out it would pay for itself in one oil change .

 

[RZucker]

Pretty clean machine for 10K. I ran an old 9D with the cable dozer, drop the blade, pull it back up 2" and leave it alone and you got a perfect push for grading.

 

[td25c]

Looked like it had a new turbo on it .

One of you HEF cat's better buy that D7E or I will .

That's a nice tractor for the money !

 

[td25c]

Pretty clean machine for 10K. I ran an old 9D with the cable dozer, drop the blade, pull it back up 2" and leave it alone and you got a perfect push for grading.

That's a great point RZ ! The cutting is done off the sharp edge of the blade .

Forgot how many times fellers would say " A cable blade aint got no down pressure " for cutting dirt . LOL !

If ya have to shove down on the blade your cutting edge is dull .

 

[John C.]

Looks like the undercarriage has sealed tracks and there is something funny going on with the chains. Sprocket teeth show some wear but not to the extent of where the idlers are. The idlers are nearly at the end of travel and the track adjuster cylinders are almost all the way out. It might have had some used chains installed. The rollers need to be looked at if possible. It's a scraper puller and someone should check the serial number and see what is in the final drives for gears. I remember something about these units having different gearing for pulling purposes. Power shift transmission could have lots of issues. The machine looks good in the photos for what it is.

Machinery Trader shows average auction at about $14,500 with plenty of asking prices at about $34,400. Dealer trade in offer depending on what you were buying and if they would consider it might be $9,500 to $10,000. It is likely to be a toy so most wouldn't offer more that $5,000 to $7,500.

 

[td25c]

That's interesting about different final drive ratio options . The tractor # was
48A3773 .

Wonder if the funky wear on the rear sprockets is from ripping in reverse ?

It has the blade rippers .

 

[StanRUS]

Cat seem to have forgotten about weight to power ratio,making for instance the 57g around 5 ton lighter and a fair bit more H.P than a 57E so much more rougher to operate i couldnt believe it.Yes they have a much fancier cab inside and thats all.

57G PP per Cat's spec's is 118lbs lighter, has the same front-to-rear weight ratio 51%-49%!
The 'fancier cab inside', yep with single joystick control that makes operating the machine less fatiguing and seat that rotates so the operator doesn't have to twist his/her back to operate the controls.
2 of the last 4 57Gs...

57G Cab

 

[squid_wood777]

57G PP per Cat's spec's is 118lbs lighter, has the same front-to-rear weight ratio 51%-49%!
The 'fancier cab inside', yep with single joystick control that makes operating the machine less fatiguing and seat that rotates so the operator doesn't have to twist his/her back to operate the controls.
2 of the last 4 57Gs...

57G Cab

So i done some double checking and 2 different sites had 2 different weights,lengths etc so who do you believe there.I must admit i was very surprised at the so called 5 ton difference.Whats not surprising is the H.P difference.Both sites i checked had the same,front motor for the G 564-600
rear 410-451.The front for the E 550 and the rear 400.A fitter where i worked once operating a E did tell me that he could put a laptop on the machines computer and open it up to nearly 100 h.p more.
As far as the controls on the Gs go as soon as they get a bit of dust around them or after some long term bouncing they play up to the point of 3 of our machines on the last job had to have complete new sticks put in them.
Another classic with the Gs was the park brake wouldnt release sometimes and the first time it happened to me i was told to lift the bail up and down 3 times and i thought they were taking the p$%@ but it worked.I agree the cabs are alot better and the seat is the best thing i think that has ever happened to scrapers.As with all new machines nowdays and actually going back to the days when electric over hydraulic first came in there are going to be big problems because electricity doesnt like dust or being jarred by working in rock or bouncing around the place on a scraper.
We had 5 Ģs and 5 Es on a job and the Gs used to just stop sometimes in the middle of the job parkbrake would come on and either go to idle or shutoff completely because something was coming up as a fault and after awhile the fitters would finally find out it was something else.
The Es would blow a o ring or hose every now and then plus they were smoother to operate and didnt flog the haulroads out.

 

[StanRUS]

Whats not surprising is the H.P difference.Both sites i checked had the same,front motor for the G 564-600
rear 410-451.The front for the E 550 and the rear 400.A fitter where i worked once operating a E did tell me that he could put a laptop on the machines computer and open it up to nearly 100 h.p more.

NET POWER: E_model gears 3-8 = 605 tractor / 451 scraper G_model gears 3-8 = 600 tractor / 451 scraper
Big difference is: E_model rated @ 1900 rpm versus G_model rated @ 1800 rpm and 12 cylinders combined (both engines) versus 20 cylinders combines (both engines).
The C18/C15 combo definitely burns less fuel to accomplish the same productivity-work.
657K: additional electronics (complexity) and more fault code gremlins.
EXHAUST EMISSIONS AFTERTREATMENT
Emissions aftertreatment = increased engine maintenance and repairs regardless of OEM brand.

Link Cat's 29th edition 'Performance Handbook' / scrapers page 369
http://nheri.ucsd.edu/facilities/docs/Performance_Handbook_416C.pdf

 

[squid_wood777]

NET POWER: E_model gears 3-8 = 605 tractor / 451 scraper G_model gears 3-8 = 600 tractor / 451 scraper
Big difference is: E_model rated @ 1900 rpm versus G_model rated @ 1800 rpm and 12 cylinders combined (both engines) versus 20 cylinders combines (both engines).
The C18/C15 combo definitely burns less fuel to accomplish the same productivity-work.
657K: additional electronics (complexity) and more fault code gremlins.
EXHAUST EMISSIONS AFTERTREATMENT
Emissions aftertreatment = increased engine maintenance and repairs regardless of OEM brand.

Link Cat's 29th edition 'Performance Handbook' / scrapers page 369
http://nheri.ucsd.edu/facilities/docs/Performance_Handbook_416C.pdf

Any news on when the 657K will be born?

 

[StanRUS]

Any news on when the 657K will be born?

NO
Steel Tariffs could interrupt the supply chain of Cat's sub manufactures. Already a bottle neck before the tariffs.
Before release for general sales the 57K will be given to a couple contractors during the 'pilot phase'. Those Ks are outfitted with Comm 2 box that transmitted data back to Cat engineering.

 

[squid_wood777]

NO
Steel Tariffs could interrupt the supply chain of Cat's sub manufactures. Already a bottle neck before theD tariffs.
Before release for general sales the 57K will be given to a couple contractors during the 'pilot phase'. Those Ks are outfitted with Comm 2 box that transmitted data back to Cat engineering.

So im guessing maybe Sukut,Peeds and Indies would be in the running to trial the 57K.Do you think tariffs could make that much of a impact.Thats serious s^€$ if thats the case.Cant wait to check a K out,be interesting to see what changes from the G ,there were lots from the E to the G and although im not a big fan of the newest im still interested to see whats going on.

 

[StanRUS]

So im guessing maybe Sukut,Peeds and Indies would be in the running to trial the 57K.Do you think tariffs could make that much of a impact.Thats serious s^€$ if thats the case.Cant wait to check a K out,be interesting to see what changes from the G ,there were lots from the E to the G and although im not a big fan of the newest im still interested to see whats going on.

I am guessing 57K will follow 620_630 Ks integrated electronics (Product-Link) features.
Article about Scraper development
https://www.equipmentworld.com/insi...ing-grounds-to-see-how-machines-come-to-life/
Article about Cat's supply chain bottleneck and Cat's downsizing
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-keep-up-with-a-boom-in-demand-idUSKCN1IO0FW
OEMs have a back log approximately 9 months for new equipment delivers, off highway and on highway.
Trump Tax Cut (good for 5 year) allows 100% deprecation write offs for new and used equipment.
Steel Tariffs are affecting prices and supply resources for everything; nails, screws, tin cans etc.

Maybe follow southerncalearthmovers U-tube channel, Kenny (Peed's Operations Manager) will know when the 57K is going to a contractor for trails.

 

[squid_wood777]

I am guessing 57K will follow 620_630 Ks integrated electronics (Product-Link) features.
Article about Scraper development
https://www.equipmentworld.com/insi...ing-grounds-to-see-how-machines-come-to-life/
Article about Cat's supply chain bottleneck and Cat's downsizing
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-keep-up-with-a-boom-in-demand-idUSKCN1IO0FW
OEMs have a back log approximately 9 months for new equipment delivers, off highway and on highway.
Trump Tax Cut (good for 5 year) allows 100% deprecation write offs for new and used equipment.
Steel Tariffs are affecting prices and supply resources for everything; nails, screws, tin cans etc.

Maybe follow southerncalearthmovers U-tube channel, Kenny (Peed's Operations Manager) will know when the 57K is going to a contractor for trails.

Thanks for the articles,very interesting.