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Good old Iron versus new stuff

Discussion in 'Scrapers' started by squid_wood777, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. squid_wood777

    squid_wood777 Well-Known Member

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    western australia
    I was checking out in$=^€=× and somebody had posted a pic of a 651b.
    They stated that they werent a fan of the old stuff but appreciated the work that had been done and the fact the machine was still running.
    The other people that commented on his post,some were for the old and i was surprised how many were for the newer stuff.Most for the new stuff didnt like the idea of the open cab and reckoned the old 51 would be rough to operate.Well ive been on 51bs and 51es and the b was actually abit smoother than the e.I pointed out to them that the biggest contractors in the states like Sukut,Indies and a few others still have big fleets of 51bs for mainly two reasons,they can just keep on rebuilding them and the main reason being theres no quicker way to move dirt than with 51s and dozers pushing them.Cat dont make 51s anymore but it could safely be said if they did make a 51g or k that the chances of it lasting as long as a 51b would be nil.As far as a g or k being smoother to operate than a 51b that too would be a nil.Cat seem to have forgotten about weight to power ratio,making for instance the 57g around 5 ton lighter and a fair bit more H.P than a 57E so much more rougher to operate i couldnt believe it.Yes they have a much fancier cab inside and thats all.Seen the 37ks and they have a fair amount of plastic on them plus you can bet the metal on them is thin as and the H.P is probably more again than a 37g and who knows how much lighter so they will more than likely be absolute pigs when the going gets rough.Another noteable machine that Cats stuffed up on are the big dozers,an old mate of mine has been on the big tractors for 40 years now and he told me if theres a D10 or 11 T,R or N he will go straight past the T,he reckons too light too rough too much H.P for the weight and weight is probably the most important thing when your working in rock.
    Be interested to hear what anyone else thinks about the old vs the new and the people from the states any news on a 657K and when it may be released.I read somewhere the last 57g was built so it must be soon.
     
  2. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Like Member Scrub puller used to say .. " Machines change with time but the dirt don't " .

    I like an open station machine for visibility & spiting tobacco .:D
    https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/wabco-c-pull.11965/

    My take is the Yellow Iron performance peaked around 1975 for the most part . They had the horse power & gears to back it up .

    Look at a Cat D7G dozer from that era ….. Will a 2018 model dozer same size produce anymore today ?

    The mid 1970's D7G don't stop for trouble codes out of a wiring harness to a computer .

    If it shuts down there's really something wrong .:D
     
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  3. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Up until recently California Department of Forestry was still running some 1960s oval track 6 or 7 size machine(s), with full glass and air conditioning of course but when they get good maintenance and not too much work they run forever....
     
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  4. Bls repair

    Bls repair Senior Member

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    Old machines needed air and fuel . New machines need computer ,sensors ,def ,re gen mode, collage education to work on ,computer to diagnose and calibrate
     
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  5. fiat41b

    fiat41b Senior Member

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    What happens when your fighting those big fire and your machine goes into re'gen mode
    "could cost you your life"
    my little kobota m7060 has a button its to be pushed in if its not it eventually goes into re'gen mode when least expected
    so you have to wait for it to clear the exhaust out.
     
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  6. stars&bars44

    stars&bars44 Well-Known Member

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    I'm only 41, been dirt moving since I was 5, productively since i was 17. I came up on late 70's and early 80's machines. I've run the new stuff as well. I'd take the old iron any day of the week.
     
    simonsrplant, td25c and sled dog like this.
  7. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    I'm kind of in between on the new versus old arguments now days. I've worked on D8s from 13A up to D8T. I don't think anyone wants to go back to direct drive 13A model machines. Many are a little conflicted of the D8T machines as well but for operators and owners there is no decision to make on that proposal. So many would propose the argument of a D8H against the D8T? The high horsepower 8H was a great machine that lugged and chugged through most any type of project. It was predictable in how long it would last and what it would cost to run it. It was easy to run and fairly comfortable for the operators of the time frame. Run the same comparison with operators and owners and again you get the same answer. The 8T would still be the selection. Even with all the electronics and issues that input into the cost equations, the 8T still is cheaper to run per material moved. An 8H was only good for around 8,000 hours before some major component failure. I've seen plenty of 8Ts up around 15,000 hours without a major rebuild.

    It's nice to reminisce about running or working on the older stuff or whine and complain about the cost or fixing problems on the new. But you really don't want to think about going backwards.
     
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  8. squid_wood777

    squid_wood777 Well-Known Member

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    Its not only the breakdowns mainly electrical stuff but the newer gear does not seem as solid as the old and with the scrapers and big dozers beat the operators up more.Ive got off a G model scraper and felt like i had been hit by a truck after a12 hr day and the next day been on a E for 12hrs and finished a lot better than the day before.Dont like how it doesnt take much of a fault to either make them go to an idle or shut them down.A lot of the time theres nothing wrong at all just the computer and censors all confused.
     
  9. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Aren't there any studies detailing amount of material moved by a newer more efficient machine that also includes the time lost to breakdowns? Or studies of repair cost vs operating hours or better yet vs yard of material moved? Or downtime vs the same?
     
  10. DPete

    DPete Senior Member

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    Somebody has a signature on one of the forums that says " We are stuck with technology what we really want is stuff that works" so true.
     
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  11. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Hey John , what do you think about comparing a mid 70'S Cat D7G up against a Cat D6T ?

    Machines are very close to horsepower & weight . Production output would be pretty close on those two dozers .

    http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specifi...ctor&make=Caterpillar&model=D7G&modelid=90768

    http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specification?category=Crawler Tractor&make=CATERPILLAR&model=d6t xl&modelid=90520

    I'm just a small time operator still trying to figure this all out .

    Seen the threads where the " high drive " undercarriage & pivot shaft had to be replaced . Looked like big bucks !

    Wonder what the cost difference would be rebuilding an old D7G verses a D6T ? Could be engine , undercarriage or whole tractor .

    I'm guessing you could rebuild two D7G's for the same cost of rebuilding one D6T today ?

    Random thoughts .:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  12. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    I'll play devils advocate somewhat. I like the air suspension seats, A/C and radios in the newer machines (I'm in Alabama we don't need no stinkin' heat o_O).

    Yeah we've had issues with our newer equipment (2004 YR MDL +) but the production and operator comfort far outweighs those issues. The newer machines have been very productive with a good operator environment for what we do and I for one don't want to go backwards.

    Just put this auto laser blade to work on the 279 last week. Bench the blade to the grade and hit auto - no grade checker and no blue tops.

    IMG_0331.JPG

    We put down 500 tons of dense grade base today with a D5G, 279D pictured and a smooth drum roller with 2 operators. Not one hub nor blue top was needed and the stone was within 1/2" of spec.

    If I don't embrace and use this technology my competition will...:cool:

    Just my $.02 and it's worth everything you paid for it.:D
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  13. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    The Old Man said I should have went strait to the patent office with the gage wheels on the box blade . To late now ! LOL :D:p

    Nice work CM ! :cool: Rolling in # 73 stone ? That packs great with the fines in it . tower7 006[1].jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
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  14. RZucker

    RZucker Senior Member

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    Youse guys will think me bat guano crazy, but I loved the late 60's Euclid/Terex TS-24's with the 12V-71 up front and the 6-71 in the rear. Simple to keep running and could run the wheels off a 637. Ask me how I know. I figured it up around 2001 and could buy 40 TS-24s for the price of a "CAT Certified" 637 rebuild.
     
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  15. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    I like those old green meanies as well but you would get the price of that one rebuild back in spades compared to keeping 40 TS24s running. How many people know how to set up the transmission shift points in those things any more.
     
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  16. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    I suppose the simplest way to compare two models of two different time periods is by using the Cat Performance manuals. I have a few of them and might even still have a DVD of one a couple of years old. I'll look around tomorrow.
     
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  17. RZucker

    RZucker Senior Member

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    The funny part is, in 2002 I got to run that old Euclid against that 637 rebuild when the CAT dealer wanted some test time on our job. Damp sandy loam with no pusher I could get dirt over the draft arms, the 37 couldn't come close. They kept plugging in the laptop and playing with tire pressure, the final excuse was " It's meant to be a push-pull machine, by itself it's helpless". They did let me run it... what a dog.
     
  18. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    Thanks TD. That's ALDOT dense grade base. It goes through a pug mill, mostly 3/4 crush with #4's and slurry. DGB is the spec for base under paving.
     
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  19. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    OK I did a quick and dirty comparison between the D6T Tier 4 final machine that is current and a D7G. The D7 model line was built between 1975 and 2003 so I figured the middle of that range (1989) for an age. I used the 25th anniversary Performance Handbook for the D7G and I down loaded book #47 from Warren Cat for the D6T Tier 4 final.

    I configured the D6T with a PAT blade, differential steer, C9.3 engine @ 202 horsepower, 22" track shoes, 109 gallon fuel tank plus 4.5 gallon DEF tank. Machine weight in this configuration shows 52,167 pounds. The drawbar pulls are approximate from a graph. First gear 85,000, second gear 50,000 and third gear 27,000. This model machine has a 54 gallon per minute hydraulic system with high relief of 3,125 PSI. Average calculated fuel consumption is 6 gallons per hour. Undercarriage costs in today dollars is book calculated at $8.40 per hour.

    The D7G is configured with a SU blade, standard steering, 3306 @ 200 horsepower, 20" track shoes, 115 gallon fuel tank. Machine weight in this configuration shows 45,560 pounds. The drawbar pulls again are approximate from a graph. First gear 75,000, second gear 42,000, third gear 25,000. The D7 hydraulic system is 58.5 gallons per minute with a relief valve setting at 2,250 PSI. Average calculated fuel consumption is 7.75 gallons per hour and the undercarriage costs in today dollars is book calculated at $14.73 per hour.

    The D6T Tier 4 generally in these calculations is the hands down winner in horsepower, drawbar pull, fuel usage, hydraulic function, fuel usage and undercarriage costs. There is a lot more to ownership costs than what I have stated here but these for the most part show a trend. Now throw in the the D7 generally came with an open cab, brake and clutch steering and standard power shift transmission with no auto shift functions plus the added bonus of needing a one hundred ton press anytime you had to repair final drives and to an owner it doesn't look like the best use of capital.
     
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  20. grandpa

    grandpa Senior Member

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    Cm1995.... keep an eye on those crazy wheel bearings, they problably will be the first thing that'll give you trouble,,, I've repaced my bearings at 800 hrs on mine.