Largest dozer?

[steve.k]

Scrub, I never said component replacement at high hours, I said component replacement. Whether that is due to failure, or due to benchmark hours being reached, components get replaced. However, the frame does not.

Going by what you said, it seems you feel a machine would be brand new if the engine, tranny, torque and finals were changed out. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Steve, I would be curious to know which Fording mine you were at, because contacts I have at several of their mines (now Teck) have stories that contradict yours very much.

Alco you post where you work and I'll post the mine where i was. It was as you guessed from my login in alberta! Ahhhh you have been checking on me. If your contacts are any good they will know which Fording mine in alberta I was at!and most fording operations die hard cat .

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Hello alco. I think we are a bit at cross purposes. I realise the frame and some components don't get changed. I take issue with the comments that machines have twenty five, or ninety, or the nonsense hundred thousand hours.

It seems they have the frames sussed to the point they don't need time in the welding bay which is good but the big numbers are meaningless . . . even fifteen thousand hours on components is pretty good, it would be interesting to know how those suckers would have stood up to a life-time of pulling scrub.

It's an interesting discussion.

Cheers.

 

[steve.k]

You got it right Scrub Puller

Yair . . . Hello alco. I think we are a bit at cross purposes. I realise the frame and some components don't get changed. I take issue with the comments that machines have twenty five, or ninety, or the nonsense hundred thousand hours.

It seems they have the frames sussed to the point they don't need time in the welding bay which is good but the big numbers are meaningless . . . even fifteen thousand hours on components is pretty good, it would be interesting to know how those suckers would have stood up to a life-time of pulling scrub.

It's an interesting discussion.

Cheers.

Is a machine really anything at all without its driveline? Your right Scrub it's meaningless!

 

[Nige]

For my purposes any, machine dozer or otherwise, IS the frame/chassis, however you want to call it, because everything else is bolt-on. Having said that even chassis can be "overhauled" to a certain extent to prolong their effective service life.

You can replace all the bolt-on components you like at whatever time in its life you fancy. However when total frame hours get over say 50,000 hours the answer to the key question "Is it worth the effort overhauling/rebuilding this machine..?" is always "Is the frame good for another round of Component Life..?". If the answer is no then you work on the justification for a new replacement machine because the money you'd spend overhauling the old one is simply throwing good money after bad.

I have experience of trucks where the frame has gone well over 100,000 hours and still been good to go for more.

 

[steve.k]

It is interesting!

For my purposes any, machine dozer or otherwise, IS the frame/chassis, however you want to call it, because everything else is bolt-on. Having said that even chassis can be "overhauled" to a certain extent to prolong their effective service life.

You can replace all the bolt-on components you like at whatever time in its life you fancy. However when total frame hours get over say 50,000 hours the answer to the key question "Is it worth the effort overhauling/rebuilding this machine..?" is always "Is the frame good for another round of Component Life..?". If the answer is no then you work on the justification for a new replacement machine because the money you'd spend overhauling the old one is simply throwing good money after bad.

I have experience of trucks where the frame has gone well over 100,000 hours and still been good to go for more.

It is interesting to point out the bare bones of this conversation. When we talk about overall longevity we really are talking about components. The frame houses these components and in all reality we can replace parts nearly for ever. I have a 1978 td25c with 35000 hrs on the drives but the rest of machine has been rebuilt numerous times. The frame is in excellent shape and we still use the machine occasionally. But at what point is it feasible to keep rebuilding a 20000 dollar machine? So I guess what you guys are saying that if the components fail prematurely but the frame holds out till 90000 hrs its a quality machine? I don't get it? But if that's the game I will say this! I do not see the d11 components out lasting anyone else's.100000 hrs on trucks is more probably as that's a whole different deal!then again components would be change numerous times!

 

[Nige]

When we talk about overall longevity we really are talking about components.

Sorry I must have missed that ........... In a mining application with machines working 6-7000 hours/year I would describe longevity as reaching an "acceptable total machine life" at which point the purchase price has long been depreciated to zero, accompanied by an acceptable PCR life for all the major components. The acceptable total machine life will of course vary with machine types (truck, grader, TTT, etc) and most likely also model to model and from mine site to mine site. You may have missed my posts on another thread of a D10T overhaul just completed where the OEM components went 17,000 hours to first life replacement and none of them had failed. I'm pretty happy with that.

 

[steve.k]

Sorry I must have missed that ........... In a mining application with machines working 6-7000 hours/year I would describe longevity as reaching an "acceptable total machine life" at which point the purchase price has long been depreciated to zero, accompanied by an acceptable PCR life for all the major components. The acceptable total machine life will of course vary with machine types (truck, grader, TTT, etc) and most likely also model to model and from mine site to mine site. You may have missed my posts on another thread of a D10T overhaul just completed where the OEM components went 17,000 hours to first life replacement and none of them had failed. I'm pretty happy with that.

Nige that is very respectable hrs and I personally have never seen them that high! That does not mean it is not possible. Total machine hrs I guess would be a grey area as different operations have different philosophies. Like I said earlier the mine I was at replaced the unit at 20,000 hrs. In my small company we run the machines till we think we need major component exchanges and replace. This typically is no more than 15000 hrs. However we typically do not buy brand new machines other than excavators and crawlers under 200 hp. The bigger equipment is bought as low houred machines if possible no more than 3000hrs. It is more cost effective to replace them after these hrs than do a component rebuild. I do know at the time the mine had both dozers the komatsu's costs of operation were lower however I beleive Cat had offerd better service and did have better incentives in terms of trade in when the machine was houred out. I did not understand why komatsu could've not offerd the same but it may have been a dealership issue at the time.

 

[Nige]

As a mid-range sized open pit mining operation we buy all our kit new. Currently standing at somewhere around $150m for the whole fleet. To expand a little bit on the D10T rebuild, our (Maintenance) target PCR for Power Train components was 14k hours. However Logistics Dept screwed up and didn't order the components in time, so the machine had to run more hours while we were getting the necessary components to site. We are not in the Continental US, just in case you're asking. The complete rebuild came in at 42% of the price of a new machine and for that we get 6 months warranty on the rebuild and 1 year on Power train components (around 2500-3000 & 5-6000 hours) respectively. If this had been a CCR with a new Serial Number and full new machine warranty I would have been expecting 55-60% of new for the rebuild. Looking at the frame after it was sandblasted, it was perfect - not a crack to be seen. There's a reason for that - we don't rip a lot, 3rd gear is blanked off, and our policy is that tractors are moved by lowboy if they have to walk more than about 1000m. So based on that I'd expect that particular tractor to go at least 2 more rebuild lives and approach the 50k hour mark on the frame before I'd even consider making the justification to replace it with a new one.

 

[TXGOAT]

We're not talking about throw-away equipment. It seems clear to me that these machines, given proper

care and handling, can be cost-effectively rebuilt.... and ought to be, under most circumstances.

 

[steve.k]

That makes perfect sense !

As a mid-range sized open pit mining operation we buy all our kit new. Currently standing at somewhere around $150m for the whole fleet. To expand a little bit on the D10T rebuild, our (Maintenance) target PCR for Power Train components was 14k hours. However Logistics Dept screwed up and didn't order the components in time, so the machine had to run more hours while we were getting the necessary components to site. We are not in the Continental US, just in case you're asking. The complete rebuild came in at 42% of the price of a new machine and for that we get 6 months warranty on the rebuild and 1 year on Power train components (around 2500-3000 & 5-6000 hours) respectively. If this had been a CCR with a new Serial Number and full new machine warranty I would have been expecting 55-60% of new for the rebuild. Looking at the frame after it was sandblasted, it was perfect - not a crack to be seen. There's a reason for that - we don't rip a lot, 3rd gear is blanked off, and our policy is that tractors are moved by lowboy if they have to walk more than about 1000m. So based on that I'd expect that particular tractor to go at least 2 more rebuild lives and approach the 50k hour mark on the frame before I'd even consider making the justification to replace it with a new one.

Nige that does make sense to me 100%! Have you ever ran other brands to compare the costs?it would be interesting to see in a situation like yours. I beleive when the company I was with the machine price at that time was 3 million or close to it. So when your talking the amount of investment it needs to last. I do know that the operator mentality in that mine was Cat or nothing so bringing another brand in meant it usually seen more abuse so I think rather than fight the system management went back to cat. The dozers I purchased were bought merely because they were good buys. As it turned out in the end they were some of the best cost effective machines I have purchased. Which is something to say as at one time I was a cat only guy also. The Fiat Allis tractors basically came with no dealer support and with a mining corp. this is not feasible. However that does not mean that the cost per hr to operate these machines is less or that they are inferior. In fact after trying nearly all brands of tractors even the operators like the way these machines work and their operator friendlyness. The hrs you talk about Nige are in line with the hrs any manufacture would or could see. I simply do not settle for this machine is better because of the hood emblem.

 

[Nige]

Our problem here is that we are in a market where The Dark Side has no effective dealer support, and despite making contact with them directly when we were up for buying all this kit they seemed to have little or no intention of changing that. The country has no prior history of large scale mining thus there are major problems recruiting trained maintenance personnel so that makes Fiat-Allis a non-starter straightaway. Unfortunately that leaves us with a choice of 1.........

 

[steve.k]

Fiat allis

Our problem here is that we are in a market where The Dark Side has no effective dealer support, and despite making contact with them directly when we were up for buying all this kit they seemed to have little or no intention of changing that. The country has no prior history of large scale mining thus there are major problems recruiting trained maintenance personnel so that makes Fiat-Allis a non-starter straightaway. Unfortunately that leaves us with a choice of 1.........

Yes I understand that and Fiat allis as far as anything over 200 hp has pretty much gone the way of the dodo bird. I was thinking more along the lines of Komatsu or Dressta. Dresstas Td40e is a hearty dozer but they still trying to get their dealer network up and runnin again after finally breaking away from Komatsu.fiat only has dozers from 200 hp smaller under the Case and New holland line.

 

[Nige]

Our problem is that the smallest dozer we need is a minimum 650HP, i.e. D10 or 375. We already have 854K Wheel Dozers and are currently also looking at the possibility of D11s. Once you get into that size class the purchasing options get whittled down to two, one of who's not interested, or gives every impression of being so despite the fact we offered them the opportunity to bid on an 80-machine mining fleet. That being the case we went for the other one for obvious reasons.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Fascinating stuff.

I had to grin at Niges comment about loading tractors to go a thousand meters. "Back in the day" it was not uncommon for us to walk D9's twenty or thirty miles between jobs and when they got there the "job" was WOT and second gear with a little bit of third gear and decel in the lighter patches.

Cheers.

 

[alco]

Alco you post where you work and I'll post the mine where i was. It was as you guessed from my login in alberta! Ahhhh you have been checking on me. If your contacts are any good they will know which Fording mine in alberta I was at!and most fording operations die hard cat .

Ummmm, I have no idea who you are, or what mine you worked at. As you no doubt know, Fording is no longer, so it's pretty doubtful that anyone in the Teck family would have even the slightest clue who Steve from Alberta is. I certainly haven't been checking up on you, and I think you need to spend a little less time reading things into peoples comments, that simply aren't there.

That being said, I work for Syncrude.

I also don't think that total machine hours are meaningless as has been suggested. In fact, I think Nige has covered the reasons very well, so I won't bother going there. But the fact remains, we had D11Rs running with upwards of 90,000 hours on them as total machine hours, and they were still worth rebuilding. In fact, they have all been cycled through Red Deer and rebuilt by Finning. The 475 I mentioned, had 25,000 total hours, and SMS couldn't guarantee they could get it to run right, even if they performed a full rebuild on it. That has to say something.

 

[steve.k]

Ahh syncrude!?

Ummmm, I have no idea who you are, or what mine you worked at. As you no doubt know, Fording is no longer, so it's pretty doubtful that anyone in the Teck family would have even the slightest clue who Steve from Alberta is. I certainly haven't been checking up on you, and I think you need to spend a little less time reading things into peoples comments, that simply aren't there.

That being said, I work for Syncrude.

I also don't think that total machine hours are meaningless as has been suggested. In fact, I think Nige has covered the reasons very well, so I won't bother going there. But the fact remains, we had D11Rs running with upwards of 90,000 hours on them as total machine hours, and they were still worth rebuilding. In fact, they have all been cycled through Red Deer and rebuilt by Finning. The 475 I mentioned, had 25,000 total hours, and SMS couldn't guarantee they could get it to run right, even if they performed a full rebuild on it. That has to say something.

I guess maybe I get a little worked up over these topics Alco. I can't see any reason why the 475 wouldn't be in as good as shape as the 11's at the same hrs but I've never been to syncrude. I worked at the fording Genesse operations and alot of our guys were from your mine. And your right teck has since bought the operations and moved back to cat. I really feel komatsu gets a bad shake at these mines as Cat has got ahold on these guys like no other. I liken it to the following Harley has, there are lots of good bikes but they still not a Harley !The 475's that left Genesse had over 20,000 hrs as would the 11's and they still wouldve had lots of hrs left in the scenario you mention. My nephew works at Finning red deer I'll have to get him to give me a tour of this overhaul facility. He has offerd a few times but only my son has been able to make it.

 

[alco]

You definitely want to go on a tour, it's quite the complex they have there. I dropped by once, and was amazed at the depth they were going to with the rebuilds. They have now done a couple of our older 988Fs, D11Rs, 589s and 793Bs. They certainly had teething problems when they came back, but were quickly sorted out. The trucks were reframed, as were, I believe, two of the D11s. There are plans to do a few more trucks and other machines this year too. The place looks big from the road, but once you get inside, it looks even bigger. Check it out if you get the chance.

 

[Nige]

Yair . . . Fascinating stuff.

I had to grin at Niges comment about loading tractors to go a thousand meters. "Back in the day" it was not uncommon for us to walk D9's twenty or thirty miles between jobs and when they got there the "job" was WOT and second gear with a little bit of third gear and decel in the lighter patches.

Cheers.

It goes back to the saying of an old boss (Maint Super) of mine from years ago - "When they're walking they're not working, but they're still wearing out just the same". We have a 100-ton lowboy with hydraulic tail ramps and just load the whole dozer, operator and all, and shift it as a "one-er" as we call it. A 3km move might take 20 minutes tops, trying walking the tractor that far when you only have 2 gears...!!

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Gotcha Nige.

In no way was I being critical, I was just pointing out the different applications and situations under which equipment works . . . and how people work them.

For instance on large scale raking jobs I still see four or five hundred HP tractors building windrows which means either backing up or a locked track screw-round to work them back and forth.

This is nonsense when I proved over forty years ago it is much more effective to work around and around the paddock and push the crap up into heaps . . . a long way from mining I know but same equipment and "manner of operation" can reduce costs/increase production by a huge margin.

Cheers.

 

[Nige]

So true mate, so true. Some of the young guns brought up in the computer generation tend to look at us as though we don't know what we're doing - until of course we prove to them that we know far more than they do.