Largest dozer?

[Nige]

I have been looking after 2 komats'u D575A-1 dozers in recent months in the coal mine here in NZ, there aint nothing that will rip like one of these man, i used to be a cat man, and i see the attributes of each machine, but the D11T that is here on site would not even sniff its ass, and we have wound approx 150HP off the fuel pumps, otherwise it eats final drives like they were cotton candy. for ripping tight rock, theres no contest.

I first heard this comment more than 30 years ago when a specialst ripping contractor (the Brit's here will remember Stokey Plant) was at a mine site where I was working. Their sales pitch went "Why blast rock you can rip" - to which the Mine Manager responded "I'll put it another way. Why the f**k would anyone consider ripping rock you can blast?". 30+ years later and the adage still holds true............

 

[core]

Nige, yes i aggree, but often when the blast has been planned by a university graduate who doesn''t know a dozer from a drill, and you are mining a fault line, you will inevitably have patches of unshot rock.

 

[Nige]

Ha - Blasting "Engineers". A problem with which I am not necessarily unfamiliar .......... my old man was a self-taught blaster. I was loading blastholes with explosive probably when I was about 10 or so. Now unless you have the relevant piece of paper you're not allowed anywhere near a blast, let alone pulling the trigger on one.

 

[Gavin84w]

I have been looking after 2 komats'u D575A-1 dozers in recent months in the coal mine here in NZ, there aint nothing that will rip like one of these man, i used to be a cat man, and i see the attributes of each machine, but the D11T that is here on site would not even sniff its ass, and we have wound approx 150HP off the fuel pumps, otherwise it eats final drives like they were cotton candy. for ripping tight rock, theres no contest.

575 ripping vs a D11T, hardly an apples for apples comparison so what is the point of the comparison? if it was a 475 the comparison would be relevant.

HP has little to do with ripping i might also add, the jockey in the seat has everything to do with it.

 

[steve.k]

575 ripping vs a D11T, hardly an apples for apples comparison so what is the point of the comparison? if it was a 475 the comparison would be relevant.

HP has little to do with ripping i might also add, the jockey in the seat has everything to do with it.

I worked at coal mine where they had 3 11n's and 2 475 komatsu's. we ripped side by side on coal and virtually no difference. The difference I seen was that when you operated either if your machine went down you were put on one of two 637 scrapers that were there. I primarily ran the 475 and had very little seat time on scraper! In fact the shop on site was nicknamed the CatHouse! Ha! Very noticeable difference between the two in realiabilty all machines bought new and ran to 10,000 hrs then rebuilt and ran 10000 more. All machines within 1000hrs of each other in terms of age so little diff there!

 

[steve.k]

What about the Fiat Allis Fd50 wasn't that a tuned up version of 41?

 

[alco]

I worked at coal mine where they had 3 11n's and 2 475 komatsu's. we ripped side by side on coal and virtually no difference. The difference I seen was that when you operated either if your machine went down you were put on one of two 637 scrapers that were there. I primarily ran the 475 and had very little seat time on scraper! In fact the shop on site was nicknamed the CatHouse! Ha! Very noticeable difference between the two in realiabilty all machines bought new and ran to 10,000 hrs then rebuilt and ran 10000 more. All machines within 1000hrs of each other in terms of age so little diff there!

Funny how pretty much every other operation that runs them side by side, says pretty much the polar opposite of what you claim.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

HP has little to do with ripping i might also add, the jockey in the seat has everything to do with it.

Gavin84w. Never were truer words spoken . . . just look at some of the ripping videos on the tube.

The sad thing is from the audio and comments you'd think they were doing okay.

Cheers.

 

[steve.k]

Depends what you mean alco?

Funny how pretty much every other operation that runs them side by side, says pretty much the polar opposite of what you claim.

It is funny alco isn't it! But I do not have cat tattooed to my butt so I do not favor them one bit! Do the komatsu rip better? Doubt it! I own one doesn't rip any better? But they do seem to hold together and that's what puts money in my jeans. If Cat had a rep of longevity my yard would be full, just like years ago before I clued in there is other quality equipment in the world !oh and alco what polar operations we talking about? I was with fording coal do I need to post some service records? We once had a team meeting with cat as their brakes kept failing on the 11's and they said it was specific to our mine, and they were not going to warranty anymore? They got all the operators together and wonderd what we could do different to save brakes? I said has the 475 had issues? Reply was no! Do they do the same job? Reply was yes! Then I would say that sums it up! Tell cat to fix their machine or take it home! It was never ending but because everyone was so fond of cat they were still good machines? Ha what a joke. This even turned me off their brand even more. I don't wanna even start on final drive trouble !

 

[Gavin84w]

It is funny alco isn't it! But I do not have cat tattooed to my butt so I do not favor them one bit! Do the komatsu rip better? Doubt it! I own one doesn't rip any better? But they do seem to hold together and that's what puts money in my jeans. If Cat had a rep of longevity my yard would be full, just like years ago before I clued in there is other quality equipment in the world !oh and alco what polar operations we talking about? I was with fording coal do I need to post some service records? We once had a team meeting with cat as their brakes kept failing on the 11's and they said it was specific to our mine, and they were not going to warranty anymore? They got all the operators together and wonderd what we could do different to save brakes? I said has the 475 had issues? Reply was no! Do they do the same job? Reply was yes! Then I would say that sums it up! Tell cat to fix their machine or take it home! It was never ending but because everyone was so fond of cat they were still good machines? Ha what a joke. This even turned me off their brand even more. I don't wanna even start on final drive trouble !

Steve, there are pockets of good news and bad news stories with all brands, makes, models and if you get the wrong make machine in a certain operation it can look like a lemon but there are many, many variables that come into play with these things. Good product support reps with application knowledge, product knowledge will find the answers, one,s with less experience may not know to ask the right questions or even know and understand what they are looking at and that is just the beginning.

1 thing i would ask you is, what makes the machine that is much more expensive to purchase initially (D11) sell at 3 to 1 worldwide to the 475? I know the answer but am keen to hear yours.

 

[steve.k]

Steve, there are pockets of good news and bad news stories with all brands, makes, models and if you get the wrong make machine in a certain operation it can look like a lemon but there are many, many variables that come into play with these things. Good product support reps with application knowledge, product knowledge will find the answers, one,s with less experience may not know to ask the right questions or even know and understand what they are looking at and that is just the beginning.

1 thing i would ask you is, what makes the machine that is much more expensive to purchase initially (D11) sell at 3 to 1 worldwide to the 475? I know the answer but am keen to hear yours.

I've been down this trail before. First things first! I will give Cat credit for one important thing, and that is operator comfort. They have over the years caterd solely to the operator making their machines extremely comfortable to operate. 2 they have spent tons of money on logistics and parts distribution. If you needed a part for cat it was usually available overnight. Komatsu, Dresser, jd and others not nearly as good. I have nearly ran every brand of dozer built and I can honestly say there are some very good tractors out there, that not only outwork them but also outlast. Cat has done a excellent job of marketing and product support that has put them where they are. If IH or dresser had had their marketing and parts systems in place such as cat did in sure the industry would look alot different today! Komatsu has developed a quality product over the years but still has not managed the customer support and logistics of Cat. Is their product of less quality? I would say not. When we had the first 475 a models the engineers were out to the mine from Japan and wanted to know how to improve their product. I took them over to the 11's and said copy everything you can about the operators station. The less you can get the operator to complain about the more you will sell!! Have a look at the new cabs offerd now! They had a solid product they just have to sell it to operators that have been running the big C's all their lives with no real competition. I have had Cat, fiat allis, dresser, dressta, komatsu, jd, case, Hyundai , hitatchi Volvo in the history of my company and can honestly say some of the best have not been Cat! So I guess the answer to your question would be product support !We have run the Fiat dozers this last while and I can honestly say have been some of the best we have had! Is there product support? No!but we work on our own stuff and prepare for any foreseeable problem!this is not something a mining corp can do but it still does not make the Fiat a lesser quality machine. The other manufactures are coming on strong and this does nothing but help the rest of us in terms of pricing and quality.As far as pricing would go at the time Cat and Komatsu were nearly identical in price!

 

[MBTRAC]

Interesting how most Dozer threads turn to a Cat vs Komatsu "forum" - having worked for both OEM's, operated & owned both brands neither products are perfect or much better than the other......whilst a lot depends on application/right spec or size for the job, at the end of the day an operator will make or break either brands reputation.

IMO:
- The things that keeps Cat on the top of the customer shopping list on most part are the "legend" & generally far superior parts availabilty/product support, Komatsu for whatever reason just does not seem capable of provisioning adequate parts support in any market (as everything you can get ex-nationally stock from Cat seems delayed ex-Japan for Komatsu).
- In Australia dealing with Komatsu is traumatic, from the latest CEO down they talk endlessly about customer "support" but fail to grasp the most basic concept "to live the dream..." at least the Cat dealers have some semblance of a professionally run organisation & customer relationship.
- As for the D11 vs 475 debate, I'd rather invest my hard earned $'s owning a 475, the trouble is it's then hard to attract/keep good operators who prefer the ride/ergonomics of the D11.........& if you have a Komatsu locally here you then are forced to deal with Komatsu Australia which couldn't make a timely decision or "call" to save their life (let alone your business.......) and where any sense of customer urgency is a completely alien concept......
- The best marketing tool Cat has in Australia is certainly Komatsu Australia's incompetence ......but if Komatsu ever gets it's people & support infrastructure commensurate with its product offering then Cat may have some real competiton..........

 

[alco]

But I do not have cat tattooed to my butt so I do not favor them one bit!

I'm far from being a Cat fan myself for most of their products, however, I do have some that I honestly feel are the best machines on the market in their categories.

they do seem to hold together and that's what puts money in my jeans.

This is what I was talking about. Personal experience has shown the opposite to be true for me. While some Komatsu products are good, solid machines, most are just not up to the long term use I expect to see. For instance, we had a 475 that had a measly 25,000 hours on it when it was finally retired due to incredibly poor availability. At the same time, we had D11s running with 90,000 hours on them, that were getting in the neighbourhood of 20% better availability, without a single rebuild....just component replacement. I can't see how that could possibly show the Komatsu as holding together better, in any way, shape or form. This is not an isolated situation either, as I can recall many, many poor performing Komatsus, with not nearly enough hours on them to be worn completely out.......and those weren't just dozers.

and alco what polar operations we talking about?

If you'd care to read what I posted, I never said anything about polar operations. I said polar opposites. As in exactly opposite to your claims.

The large Komatsu dozers are good machines when new, rough, but good. But as with pretty much all the other Komatsus I have worked on, and operated, as they get some hours on them, the reliability drops off sharply, whereas Cat's large dozers seem to take a much more gradual trip to unreliability.

I'm certainly not saying Cat's large dozers are perfect (they definitely are not!), but I do feel they are superior to Komatsu's offerings in the same category.

 

[steve.k]

Alco very interesting for sure! 90,000 hrs that is unbelievable the machines here at that many hrs of any brand would be in no better shape than the coal we push up! Like I said earlier all machines were bought near the same time so basically new at same time. We ran both machines to 10 000 then they were taken in and stripped to frame and what ever needed replaced was. Then the same was done again, I do not see the cost feasibility of doing this 9 times. It is interesting to note at this hr mark our komatsu's usually needed very little replacement parts. Here is what I usually observed when the komatsu's rolled in. The mentality around the mine was cat or nothing so they typically received the most abuse. My dozer was shared by a few of us that actually liked them and ours stayed running. I would hear it all like they won't work where it's soft? Proved them wrong? They won't push as much ya right! And as you say rougher?the early machines that were non bogie may have been slightly but I had a hard time noticing. It is funny that cat has this reputation you say but I have never seen it yet. I currently own 15 machines and zero are cat , we had 8s and 7s and you just got into a habit of final drive replacement in the spring. I guess the 7 was a little more hearty but 8 s were a joke. It was at this point we turned away. Maybe you are in different soils but the rock at this mine was not in favor of the 11's in any way.I have never heard of the hrs you claim I would definately like to hear of others with this amount. You see almost all big dozers here (10-11 size) on the auction block at 20-25,000 hrs on them. Most of the smaller machines are 10-15,000 or less. One good freind of mine works pipeline and they run nothing but Cat, he says they buy new and dump at 5-7,000 hrs before the trouble begins. He has no reason to lie as he has the letters Cat tattooed to his butt.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . alco. When you say component replacement at high hours do you mean a routine change out of (say) engine, transmission and finals?

If so what hours do you get on those components . . . like I mean to say it sounds a bit like the axe on a woodpile that's had two heads and five handles in the last thirty years.

When Nige spends 42% of a new tractor cost on a twenty-day rebuild on a D10 do the hours accrued after the refurbishment get added to the total of what the tractor did? . . . . if so quoting numbers like twenty-five and ninety thousand hours is meaningless.

In my world it's component hours that count.

Cheers.

 

[TXGOAT]

i've heard the term "zero hours rebuild"...

 

[Gavin84w]

Depending on everything typical D11R components will see engine life in the order of 14000hrs, trans/bevel gear maybe a bit higher and the torque would be done when you do the engine as you lift them out together, sure some components will last longer in some sites and some will not last as long, thats how Cat come up with there centreline numbers to give customers an idea on what LCC can be achieved or budgetted for, these numbers are not rocket science as there are more than a couple D11R,s out there that the data has been gathered on.

So a 90,000 hr D11 sure would have had more than a few drivelines replaced in it, pumps, cylinders and many other items to can have a LCC thrown at them for budget purposes but they seldom get run till they leak or give up the ghost.

High hour machines don,t say a lot about the components but when you get mainframes living to high hours that says a lot, especially about operational practices at the site.

I just had a customer purchase a complete D11 U/C from me and he also just bought one for his 475, Komatsu was a lot more expensive as was the midlife overhaul kit too.

Here is a story on a 100,000hr D11N that Cat honoured

http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/RFI-Energy-Cat-Celebrate-Rare-100000-Hour-Milestone/14906/

 

[Gavin84w]

Maybe you are in different soils but the rock at this mine was not in favor of the 11's in any way.I have never heard of the hrs you claim I would definately like to hear of others with this amount. You see almost all big dozers here (10-11 size) on the auction block at 20-25,000 hrs on them. Most of the smaller machines are 10-15,000 or less. One good freind of mine works pipeline and they run nothing but Cat, he says they buy new and dump at 5-7,000 hrs before the trouble begins. He has no reason to lie as he has the letters Cat tattooed to his butt.

Seeing machines on the auction block can tell many, many stories, least of all there junk or worn out, boy tipping out new machines at 5-7000hrs, thats when the bugs have been ironed out, i would hazard a guess it has nothing at all to do with that and has a lot more to do with the leasing/financials/tax breaks than issues with the machine.

 

[alco]

Yair . . . alco. When you say component replacement at high hours do you mean a routine change out of (say) engine, transmission and finals?

If so what hours do you get on those components . . . like I mean to say it sounds a bit like the axe on a woodpile that's had two heads and five handles in the last thirty years.

When Nige spends 42% of a new tractor cost on a twenty-day rebuild on a D10 do the hours accrued after the refurbishment get added to the total of what the tractor did? . . . . if so quoting numbers like twenty-five and ninety thousand hours is meaningless.

In my world it's component hours that count.

Cheers.

Scrub, I never said component replacement at high hours, I said component replacement. Whether that is due to failure, or due to benchmark hours being reached, components get replaced. However, the frame does not.

Going by what you said, it seems you feel a machine would be brand new if the engine, tranny, torque and finals were changed out. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Steve, I would be curious to know which Fording mine you were at, because contacts I have at several of their mines (now Teck) have stories that contradict yours very much.

 

[steve.k]

Ahhh 14000 hrs

Seeing machines on the auction block can tell many, many stories, least of all there junk or worn out, boy tipping out new machines at 5-7000hrs, thats when the bugs have been ironed out, i would hazard a guess it has nothing at all to do with that and has a lot more to do with the leasing/financials/tax breaks than issues with the machine.

14000 hrs on components that sounds more like it. I currently have a Fiat allis Fd255 wit approx 11,500 on complete machine and has not been touched. I thought we were doing quite well! The other 255 developed a coolant leak into the oil pan leaky liner seal. Your hrs are more in touch with what I have seen.