How many patterns are you competent on?

[Taylortractornu]

RonG I think the most difficult thing about that blind awkward thing was when youd dump and the levers being close together youd take out a side board on a truck orgrading the stone for a subgrade. i kinda had to pinch the hoist control to to single it out from the other valves. I very much wanted to ad extensions to them but the boss never let me. I told him Id rather run an old open cab rear steer Michigan where you sat between the arms. Later they let me stay in the 980. I also liked our Dresser except for the cab that sat on the front half

 

[RonG]

I agree with you Taylor and regarding those Hough/Dresser loaders that steered in the back........ the Case loaders did it too,I cannot see one advantage to that configuration.There is not one situation that I can think of that the conventional articulated loader could not do better,in some cases much better.It took a half acre to move over the width of the bucket with those things.
I happen to have very good peripheral vision and one company I worked for had a Case W20 that I ran a lot and I used to scare myself in a sharp turn when I saw that engine nacelle out of the corner of my eye sneaking up on me.That never failed to give me a jolt and I never got used to it and I ran that loader for 7 or 8 years.

 

[Steve Frazier]

First time I used a Hough loader, I couldn't figure out why I wasn't lining up with my truck to dump the load, something was definately strange going on. I finally got the truck loaded and it wasn't until I climbed down out of the cab that I saw I was hooked to the front half instead of the rear.

Definately a different way of doing things.

 

[BRL]

These are sure interesting comments. I've seen Hough's before, but not while running, & I've never operated one. So without that experience I'm having a hard time figuring this out. Can someone describe in layman's terms what is so different about this thing, or post a pic? Thanks.

 

[digger242j]

I don't have any experience with Houghs specifically, but from the discussion I take it that they are similar to Case's articulated loaders--that is to say, that rather than the wheels turning at the ends of the axles, steering is accomplished by the whole machine bending in the middle, hence the name "articulated". Some models have the operator's position behind the pivot point, and others have the operator seated in front of that point. What makes the difference, is that if you're sitting behind it, you can look forward and see which direction the front end is pointed, so you know where you're going. If you're seated in front of that pivot point, you need eyes in back of your head to see which direction your hind end is sending you....

 

[Taylortractornu]

Digger Steve is right on the head about the Hough loaders. Case,Hough, IHC Payloader, Dresser, Kramers, and several others had the steering on the fron half. ANd the rear half hindged. I always hought something was sneaking up on me out of the corner of my eye. In a Cat or Komatsu you sit on the back half and the front half moves. That real nice with pallet forks or moving pipe. You can catch the edge of the object with the fork corner and steer left or right and the front half moves. you can adjust the load like that. On the front seaters you have to use different manuvers. Most every one builds their machines with the cab on the rear. Michigan came out with one better they had a dual articulation the drivers seat sat in the middle and it had an articulation on the front and rear. They didnt sell alot of them either.
I guess Im a glutton for punishment when I see an old machine Ill usually end up making new friends and operating the old machines for a day or so lol. Im afflicted. I never grew up my sand box just got bigger.

 

[RonG]

Taylor and Digger,your comments and observations are right on target..........the Case sales people used to declare that the Case configuration could go in tighter quarters than the conventional articulated machines and I heard that early in my career and it was always on my mind in a tight spot,heh,heh,glad I'm in a Case.
Well,I was never convinced and the price I had to pay was always a crick in the neck to see how my other half was doing.
They were a lot of extra work in my book and never my loader of choice if I had a choice.
Taylor,the older Trojan 8000 was double articulated too.I can't ever remember seeing one in person but their brochures had pics of them.............nice V12 Detroit engines too.
I ran a Trojan 4000 for many years with an 853 Detroit in it......what a sound!! You could hear it for miles.) Ron

 

[cat320]

WE have a hough and I really don't care to be sitting on the front of the articulation.I have driven both and prefere to sit on the rear.Reason being is you can see where the machine is going rather than you turning one way and having to worrie about the ass end of it.

 

[digger242j]

Originally posted by paulsoccodato
my backhoe and my excavator, both use the same pattern. (SAE- backhoe style)

i have used ISO -excavator controls, just takes a minute to refresh.

My 580 has the SAE style, and I can jump off of it and on to an excavator and back without a problem. However, I've been told that to try and jump from one *excavator* (with ISO controls) to a second excavator (with SAE controls) will mess you up. Well, yesterday I had a chance to test the difference.

Yesterday I agreed to help a plumber buddy of mine. His Takeuchi (SP?) mini-X was already on site. All I had to do was run it. As soon as I got on it I knew something was wrong. It has SAE controls. That's the first excavator I've run with SAE controls, and I've spent a lot of time the past several years using ISO. It took me literally, an hour yesterday to get comfortable on the SAE. What was really frustrating was that if it had been my 580 I could've done it in my sleep. :Banghead

(To make matters worse, the gas service line was in the same ditch as the old sewer we were looking for, and it only took about 15 minutes to get to *it*. Fortunatly there was no harm done, but the pucker factor was pretty high.)

I get to go back tomorrow and backfill the hole. It should be interesting to see whether I'll be comfortable right off the bat, or need to adapt again, and it'll also be interesting to see if I have trouble jumping back on to the ISO style Kobelco next week.

 

[Dirtguru]

I am fine with either pattern but I prefer SAE. The first hr is always a little unnerving when switching between the two. Ten years ago I often wondered why OSHA or someone did not step in and require one or the other as an industry standard. Nowadays it seems that most excavators up to 45,000 lbs come equiped with a pattern changer so it's not as much of an issue with 4 yr old and newer machines. While I have never been a party to any accidents caused by operators being unfamiliar with control patterns I have heard of serious accidents caused by this. I suspect that many of these incidents could have been avoided simply by not putting an operator who may be excellent on one pattern but never even felt the other into a situation where other peoples lives are at stake, like a major sewer or water main project. I understand there are circumstances when this is just not avoidable for some. For me this is unacceptable, I would rather loose a days production or better yet stick that guy on a hoepack or loading trucks from top of a stockpile until there comfortable. A good hand will usually pick it up in an hr or two.

A Chapman

 

[digger242j]

Just in case anybody was wondering....

I've been back and forth between the ISO machine and the SAE machines. (I just checked and in my prior post I had the names confused.) The first SAE machine I got on was the Kobelco mini and even though I had the option of switching the pattern I chose not to. I knew that I couldn't switch the pattern on the bigger Kobelco, so I decided to try and get accustomed to jumping back and forth. I've gone from one pattern to the other several times now, although not on the same day yet.

What I've found is that the first ten minutes or so are really difficult, on whichever pattern I'm switching to. For some reason, it seems like it helps to hold the controls with just my thumb and fingers, rather than with my whole hand. Perhaps it has something to do with needing to consciously keep hold of the controls, which in turn keeps me more conscious of what each of them does. I dunno.

I've also noticed that for any given combination of control inputs, I need to do a number of repititions before I get comfortable. For instance, once I've dug a few bucketfuls (coordinating the raising of the boom with the crowding of the dipper and curling of the bucket), it seems to come naturally again. Even once I've done that for a few minutes, if I then try to make a pass pushing out with the teeth to level a spot on the ground (coordinating lowering the boom and extending the dipper while curling the bucket out), it just doesn't happen like it should. I need to do a couple of repititions of *that* before it gets to be second nature the way it should be.

I have to say that I don't *ever* feel as comfortable on either pattern as I had been when I was just running the SAE machines. There have just been a couple instances each day when the machine did something I'm not altogether sure *I* wanted it to do. I'm not positive it wasn't because my hands momentarily got confused without my even being aware of it. I imagine I'd get over that after a couple days straight of just staying on one type.

It is kind of an interesting way to explore the boundaries of your personal limitations though...

 

[Steve Frazier]

OK, so ISO and SAE are the industry names for the controls, around here everyone calls them Cat or Deere patterns. Which is which?

 

[Dirtguru]

Cat is S.A.E. Deere is I.S.O.

I'm not sure but I believe I.S.O. stands for international standard of operation.

A Chapman

 

[digger242j]

Or in other words, SAE is what many people would refer to as "excavator" pattern, and ISO is what many (or at least me), would call "JD backhoe" pattern (because I was always differentiating it from Case backhoe, sine I went probably 20 years without ever really learning how to run an excavator.)

Since I obviously had trouble remembering which was which I came up with a simple memory aid. (Funny, I can't remember the proper term for "memory aid" either. But I digress...)

From now on I'm going to think of SAE as "Standard...Ahhh? (what the heck was it again?--Oh yeah!)...Excavator!" pattern.

Even though I suspect it stands for "Society of Auotomtive Engineers".

 

[Grinderminder71]

JD controls?

I worked w/ quite a few excavators and track loaders and didnt have a prblem switching btween the two but most the excavators had the same controls which most guys called jd controls but some would call them cat controls. I still dont know what the diff is but I do know that I cannot run a Case 1080 widetrack with stock controls no matter what I do. What I am used to and what all the cats and jd's had was two sticks left hand was rake and swing and right was bucket and boom, most had pedals for travel and sterring but some like a cat 215 had a stick to steer and the old bantam was just weird.
My question is: what are jd and what are cat controls on an excavatror? ( just in case I get asked by a potential employer.)

 

[Steve Frazier]

JD controls are left hand main boom and swing, right hand dipper stick and bucket.

Cat controls are left hand dipper stick and swing, right hand main boom and bucket.

 

[RobPg]

I worked w/ quite a few excavators and track loaders and didnt have a prblem switching btween the two but most the excavators had the same controls which most guys called jd controls but some would call them cat controls. I still dont know what the diff is but I do know that I cannot run a Case 1080 widetrack with stock controls no matter what I do. What I am used to and what all the cats and jd's had was two sticks left hand was rake and swing and right was bucket and boom, most had pedals for travel and sterring but some like a cat 215 had a stick to steer and the old bantam was just weird.
My question is: what are jd and what are cat controls on an excavatror? ( just in case I get asked by a potential employer.)

Tell me about it - After breaking in to the trade on this BANTAM it was a pleasure to hop into a brand new KOEHRING in 1985 .

 

[dayexco]

for safety purposes...all new excavators should come out SAE. or have the capability of switching over to JD with a push of a button. there's enough danger in our line of work without having somebody with 10,000 hrs. running JD controls, and putting him on a SAE machine and men down in the hole.

 

[tylermckee]

Im competent enough on just about any new piece of machinery after about an hour or so. mainly i use sae excavator, new case 2 stick, old case 3 stick with foot swing, all kinds of different dozer controls, material handlers, etc. Most good operators can switch between machines without much trouble. I'm best with an excavator though.

 

[Dozerboy]

I have no problems with SAE JD and 4 levers, but the first co. I work for had all of them and sometimes I had to switch a few times a day. I like JD better you can take one hand off a control and still do something. Now dozers I have ran the old schools with the clutches in front and the new ones, but like early 80s they had the ones with the clutches/brake that you ran on your left, man those kill me. It doesn't help I don't run them much and ours only brakes one way unless your cutting then the side with the clutching alone will turn you, POS D8L.