How many patterns are you competent on?

[srs_mn]

Silly to have two "standards"

Hi guys,
I'm an old JD backhoe guy - I've run JD's since 1974 or so... 350 and 450 Crawler-Loader-backhoes, 310's, 410's, 510's, 490's, 590's, 690's... you get the idea... they're all the same and I got really good with them. Then one day, about 10 years ago, I had to run a Cat Excavator - I don't even remember what model it was - a 215, I think - anyway, I could NOT dig a hole with that thing!!! The controls were just WRONG!!! After a while the air was just BLUE with cusswords!! I tried for over an hour and finally just gave up... It was really embarassing to let my totally inexperienced young helper get the hang of the thing in about a half hour, but he didn't have the JD pattern branded into his brain, so he started from scratch. I have since tried, on several different Cats, to learn their pattern, but the JD pattern is impossible for me to un-learn.
Anyway, I think that it is silly, and dangerous, to have two "standard" excavator control patterns - whoever is in charge of these types of things should sit down and decide on ONE standard pattern - I have no idea how they would decide, but it could be as simple as flipping a coin.
Sorry for the long rant.
Steve

 

[tylermckee]

Anyway, I think that it is silly, and dangerous, to have two "standard" excavator control patterns - whoever is in charge of these types of things should sit down and decide on ONE standard pattern - I have no idea how they would decide, but it could be as simple as flipping a coin.
Sorry for the long rant.
Steve

as long as they have the selector swtich, which all new machines do, that having 2 paterns is fine. Different strokes for different folks i guess, some love JD, some love CAT, let the operator decide.

 

[Squizzy246B]

Cat is S.A.E. Deere is I.S.O.

I'm not sure but I believe I.S.O. stands for international standard of operation.

A Chapman

Nope

Cat is ISO
Deere is SAE

 

[Orchard Ex]

Maybe this is a dumb question but - why were/are there so many patterns? Did each company really think it had a better way or was it just to keep us loyal to the one brand we learned on?

 

[JimBruce42]

IM competent on SAE and ISO controls, doesn't take too long for me to refresh. Hystat and steering clutch dozers are pretty quick to pick up on. Wheel loaders and Backhoes I'm decent with ( may not be an awesome operator when it comes to grading, but I'm competent) I like the way the cat track loaders run, though it's been over a year since i ran one, so I don't know how long it would take to get used to turnin with my feet again.

By far the most awkward controls I ever learned would be Gradall controls, because not only are the completely switched from Cat controls, the process of digging is done differently too. It's really weird to get a hang of at first.

 

[xkvator]

a guy that lives near me had JD backhoes as long as i can remember...decided to look for a newer(used) machine about 15 yrs ago...the best deal - $ - was on a Case 580D...so he bought it. He couldn't get the hang of the Case controls...so I ran it for him on a couple jobs till he could take the time to get used to them. He never could...but his solution was to run it with his arms crossed...and he did it for all these years that way.
He still has the machine, but is basically retired now

 

[digger242j]

...but his solution was to run it with his arms crossed...

As odd as that may sound, I have a friend who did exactly the same thing.

 

[sbrem]

As odd as that may sound, I have a friend who did exactly the same thing.

I also talked to a guy once that had to do that to run a machine. Must look funny to see, but you gotta do whatever works.

 

[treemuncher]

I had 3 excavators and a backhoe attachment at one time years ago and I was proficiently able to jump off of one and onto another without missing a beat. Hein Werner C12 with hand and foot controls (boom and swing on hands, bucket and stick on feet) to a Drott 35 with hand and foot controls (boom and stick on hands, swing and bucket on feet) to a Komatsu PC200 SAE pattern to a Woods backhoe with case/jd control pattern.

Learning the sae pattern was the hardest because it was the last in line and mirrored the case/jd pattern on the boom and stick. SAE is by far the most intuitive and efficient pattern to operate. It only makes good sense to put the boom and bucket on the same control stick.

I'm thankful that I'm not dancin' with the old Drott and Hein Werner any more. Foot controls suck unless they are for attachments or travel functions!

 

[stuvecorp]

Growing up they had a old John Deere backhoe that was mounted out on the side of some truck tandems for cleaning ditches on the cranberry marsh and pulled by a 450c, I think I was 13 and that was the coolest. Ranitmost of the summer and now I can not run the Cat controls at all, acouple of years ago had a mini we rented and just could not get it. Now i ask to make sure it has the JD backhoe style other wise its ugly.

I learned to run skidsteer with Case hand controls and don't mind the Cat hand controls since we got a Polaris ASL I can go back and forth no problem but can't get the hang on the foot controls. Our first skid was a New Holland with the foot controls and had to buy the conversion to hand controls.

Haven't run dozer hardly at all but alot of time with loaders, fortunatly all have been ones that you sit on the back. I like the single lever better than the two stick.

It probably helps to be on all different brands starting out, maybe you don't get so set in what you like. I think that if different patterns are going to be out there they sould make it easy to switch to keep the operator happier and hopefully safer.

 

[digger242j]

Since it's bound to come up again...

In another thread, the name of the different control patterns came up. I'm sure it won't be the last time that it does.

In the interest of once and for all providing an easy reference as to which is which, I scanned the 2-sided, reversable placard that comes with a Kobelco 35 excavator. A picture is worth a thousand words.

The first one is the ISO pattern, (which Kobelco on the placard calls BHL)--dipper on the right hand, boom on the left.

The second is the SAE pattern--boom on the right hand, dipper on the left.

 

[Squizzy246B]

In another thread, the name of the different control patterns came up. I'm sure it won't be the last time that it does.

In the interest of once and for all providing an easy reference as to which is which, I scanned the 2-sided, reversable placard that comes with a Kobelco 35 excavator. A picture is worth a thousand words.

The first one is the ISO pattern, (which Kobelco on the placard calls BHL)--dipper on the right hand, boom on the left.

The second is the SAE pattern--boom on the right hand, dipper on the left.

Digger, I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say; I am very much not sure I agree with Mr Kobelcos interpretation. The lower pattern is as CAT's come from the factory, and are required to be ISO for internaternational sales. The upper pattern, as shown on our CAT 301.8, Kubota KX 161-3 and Yanmar 27-3 is SAE...or better known as John Deere pattern...but then again its been a long week ...Anybody? I'm very happy to be wrong

 

[Ross]

Well am pretty good with the SAE config. Boom- Bucket in the right hand.

But when it comes to JCB 3CX Cross action. Game over.

Ross

 

[dumptrucker]

I have run over the years case 3stick john deere 4 stick, Prentice 120 logloader 4stick and 2 stick both with foot swing, leibher 942 with cat controls and foot swing brake, cat,komatsu,johndeere graders,komatsu , johndeere, case, cat, dresser dozers , johndeere 595 rubber tire excavater , case ,bobcat, and cat skidsteer,and several different plow trucks with 1 and 2 wings, sander etc. wheeew! I think i got em all

 

[Squizzy246B]

SAE Standards
Document Number: J1177
Date Published: December 2006


Title: Hydraulic Excavator Operator Controls

Issuing Committee:
Mtc Sc5, Excavators

Scope:
This standard covers mobile hydraulic excavator controls and the specific arrangement and direction of motion for the primary controls. This standard applies to mobile hydraulic excavators as described in ISO 7135 - Earthmoving Machinery - Hydraulic excavators - Terminology and commercial specifications, and ISO 6165- Earthmoving Machinery - Basic Types - Vocabulary. Purpose This standard is intended as a guide for designing uniform two lever type operating controls for mobile hydraulic excavators, either wheel mounted or crawler mounted on independently reversible tracks.

Product Status: In Stock

File Size: 673K

Control patterns (ISO or Standard)--The operating pattern of an excavator's joysticks. There are two predominant joystick patterns on compact excavators. When operating in the ISO pattern, the right-hand joystick controls the boom up/down function and the left-hand joystick controls the arm in/out function. With the "standard" pattern, these two functions are reversed.

 

[Squizzy246B]

OK, I'm gunna go even further out on the creaking limb.

Just checking around and following on from the above post, Cats simulator webpage (page 6) can be read here:

http://www.cat.com/cda/components/s...uredFileServletJSP?fileId=492187&languageId=7

So it would appear that ISO and SAE pattern are one and the same. When the dipper is on the right stick this is variously called "Optional" or "Backhoe Loader" or "Standard" pattern. The confuser is the reference to "Standard" pattern. My Yanmar manual states ISO = Standard and the other pattern (JD) as "Optional". The extract from SAE in the post above states the two patterns as ISO and "Standard" which is at odds with my Yanmar manual. It seems if you call the patterns ISO (dipper on left stick) and the "alternative pattern (dipper on right stick) you might be more apt to avoid confusion no matter where you are in the world.

It would be good to see what other machines manuals state.

It seems that many people understand "Cat" with the dipper arm control on the left joystick - and - "JD" with the dipper arm control on the right stick. It should be recognised that SAE does not hold much weight in some parts of the world.

 

[Squizzy246B]

So..while the ISO and SAE documentation I have found suggests the actual patterns are one and the same; some websites, such as Volvo's, state the controls can be switched between SAE and ISO???. I think this is marketing blurb based out of ignorance. Most training references state the controls as "excavator pattern/ISO" and "Backhoe Loader Pattern".

So thats it, I'm confused...does anybody actually own a copy of ISO 7135?

(I get this feeling I'm down a deep hole and still diggin)

 

[digger242j]

What we really need is one of the CAT engineers to straighten us ditch diggers out. I'll bet somewhere in Peoria they have a copy of ISO 7135.

C'mon guys. Quit laughing at us and tell us which is which. :beatsme

 

[Squizzy246B]

I object to being called a "Ditch Digger"

(I'm pretty sure I've been called a lot worse though)

 

[dumptrucker]

I have always known the cat control's a SAE. But who know's?