Who makes your favorite skid steer?

[CM1995]

I dont disagree that it is easier to get in and out of. I accept that the side door has advantages and perhaps some disadvantages. My main point is that I believe that most customers either dont see the benefit or think it is significant enough to buy a skid steer built around that concept.

I think you hit the nail on the head.:cool2

Personally, I wouldn't by that machine because of the single arm design. Skids take a lot of abuse, side to side on the bucket especially when heavy digging and prying. The JCB's boom may hold up to that and hold up well, but I am not willing to risk my hard earned money on a concept when I have 20+ years experience with the standard 2 arm machines, it's just not worth the risk, to me anyway.

 

[dave esterns]

i have seen a lot of snapped skid steer loader arms in my day. jcb is the only one who offers a lifetime boom warranty to their customers.

 

[KSSS]

I went ahead and took the liberty of taking a few measurements on the TR270 I have on my lot vs. a JCB 225T. Both machines are radial lift boom styles, although the 225T is a slightly bigger machine. The booms on the TR270 measure 10". Your argument would be more true had Case (not picking on Case only, but that is what I had for comparison's sake) decided to not extend the outer plate of the arms further than the actual boom. It gives the appearance of a larger arm. Why would anyone want their loader arms to appear larger? I take it as a compliment when someone describes our Powerboom as "massive". Speaking of, the JCB Powerboom on the 225T (or any large frame machine for that matter), measures 12". So this massive disparity between JCB's Powerboom and a Case (again, only using them because that's what I had....I'm sure other OEM's are similar) is a whopping 2".

So lets sum up. We have a total of 12" of obstruction on the right side of our machine. The Case TR270 has a 10" obstruction on each side, for 20" of total obstruction. Now I know that I am over-simplifying by adding the numbers together, but it does make my point. Most people who have never operated a JCB machine have a pre-conceived notion that the boom is SO much larger it HAS to get in the way. Larger? Yes. But when you compare the immense benefit of the other 3 directions of visibility, the 2" ends up not amounting to a hill of beans (that's what she said, right?).

The other thing is that you would be surprised at how many customers actually point out the side entry as a benefit. Is this alone enough to justify a purchase? Of course not. However, now that we finally have a machine to go with that feature, like I stated in an earlier post, it's icing on the cake.

In my opinion, at least in my market, Volvo's issues for skids could also be attributed to what I like to call the "Komatsu Effect". Why did Komatsu get out of the compact equipment line? (with the exception of mini Ex's) Because they couldn't convince their dealers that their time was as well spent selling a SSL or CTL as it was selling a 40T haul truck, or a PC400. I think this could have been true with Volvo also, and depending on the dealer, may remain the case even with a better product to sell. Now I'm not speaking specifically for my local dealer, as I am not familiar enough with their operation, but I think this general statement can be argued.

Lastly, if only our current batch of Presidential candidates could debate as intelligently and civilly as KSSS and I have, we would all be better off!!!

Ok this will be my last point to make on the issue (as cheers erupt across HEF).

I was anticipating the combining of loader arm obstruction arguement, as I heard this at ConExpo as well. Its an interesting stat but not really revelent. The 2" difference in arm height by itself may not seem like much but combined with a wider arm (which is as much of an obstruction as height can be), a larger single rear tower and having all the tilt mechanism on the right side it adds up to a "massive" obstruction. I realize that every machine has its blind spots as you elevate the loader arms and you have to find the "holes" around the arm linkage to see out of . I mentioned this with the 279 demo.

Given my option I would still prefer to have equal amount of obstruction on both sides than clear on one side and have much more limited view on the other. No one uses a skid steer because they have to much room, they use them for exactly the opposite reason (as well as others) you cant always favor turns to the left or control what happens on the other side of the machine. Thats why having some obstruction on both sides is better than all and nothing (sorry how about more obstructed because it is), but perhaps I am just a traditionalist.

I will say this. I have never spent a day working in a new series JCB. I suggest you and I take a trip to the new JCB plant, we will set up an obstacle course, I get the machine of my choice and we will compete head to head and see who can see what. As long as we are at it, lets test the dirt digging/moving productivity as well. We can put it on Utube. We'll have a great time! I think it would be a great opportunity for JCB to display their new machines attributes. Its also gets me out of the frozen tundra for a couple days. If I win however, I get a "yes shane you were right all along" thread here on HEF.

As far as the Komatsu Effect, yea there is certainly something to that. I see it in many of the CASE ag dealers (present company obviously excluded). The amount of work required to sell a skid steer many times is just as intensive as selling a Magnum tractor just with less monetary incetive. CAT seems to have been able to sell the small iron along side the larger stuff with more success.

Get JCB to spring for our trip to Ga. and lets get this settled (I will pay to rent the CASE oops I mean machine of my choice).

 

[dave esterns]

hahaha, this is awesome! i will show up with the old bobcat and literally run circles around everyone with their fancy shmancy electric controls...guaranteed!! i dont even need to see to know what is going on in the old bobcat. oh, and visibility to the arm side of the jcb is still better than on the bobcat. the selling points for me are the quiet pressurized cab, the heavy rear door, and ease of cleaning the glass and the floor of the cab. the safety factor and side entry are a bonus for me.

 

[xcmark]

who is the a hole??

Dave rest easy , no on this topic !

There was a guy that Willy unloaded on about 2 months ago , there was more then a few post from this guy that had personal attacks as I recall. I also recall a few post that a Yanmar fan add nothing to the conversation .

 

[dave esterns]

Ok this will be my last point to make on the issue (as cheers erupt across HEF).

Given my option I would still prefer to have equal amount of obstruction on both sides than clear on one side and have much more limited view on the other.

Get JCB to spring for our trip to Ga. and lets get this settled (I will pay to rent the CASE oops I mean machine of my choice).

if i was blind, i would rather be blind in both eyes than in just one too!!

ah i might make it my lifes work to get kss in a jcb. im pretty sure i could make a strong argument that the arm side visibility of the jcb is way better than the case series 3 visibility.

 

[stuvecorp]

I honestly just don't care about the single arm, it is not important so JCB(or Volvo) would have to compete straight up to make me leave what I run now(Case 440S3). Around here I'm not sure who the JCB dealer even is and for me the resale and finance package is really important. I like Case skids but they do have to offer a good deal, I just don't have money to overspend no matter what 'color' I like.

 

[JCBiron]

Ok this will be my last point to make on the issue (as cheers erupt across HEF).

I was anticipating the combining of loader arm obstruction arguement, as I heard this at ConExpo as well. Its an interesting stat but not really revelent. The 2" difference in arm height by itself may not seem like much but combined with a wider arm (which is as much of an obstruction as height can be), a larger single rear tower and having all the tilt mechanism on the right side it adds up to a "massive" obstruction. I realize that every machine has its blind spots as you elevate the loader arms and you have to find the "holes" around the arm linkage to see out of . I mentioned this with the 279 demo.

Given my option I would still prefer to have equal amount of obstruction on both sides than clear on one side and have much more limited view on the other. No one uses a skid steer because they have to much room, they use them for exactly the opposite reason (as well as others) you cant always favor turns to the left or control what happens on the other side of the machine. Thats why having some obstruction on both sides is better than all and nothing (sorry how about more obstructed because it is), but perhaps I am just a traditionalist.

I will say this. I have never spent a day working in a new series JCB. I suggest you and I take a trip to the new JCB plant, we will set up an obstacle course, I get the machine of my choice and we will compete head to head and see who can see what. As long as we are at it, lets test the dirt digging/moving productivity as well. We can put it on Utube. We'll have a great time! I think it would be a great opportunity for JCB to display their new machines attributes. Its also gets me out of the frozen tundra for a couple days. If I win however, I get a "yes shane you were right all along" thread here on HEF.

As far as the Komatsu Effect, yea there is certainly something to that. I see it in many of the CASE ag dealers (present company obviously excluded). The amount of work required to sell a skid steer many times is just as intensive as selling a Magnum tractor just with less monetary incetive. CAT seems to have been able to sell the small iron along side the larger stuff with more success.

Get JCB to spring for our trip to Ga. and lets get this settled (I will pay to rent the CASE oops I mean machine of my choice).

Ok, here's the last thing I'll say on the issue.....had a demo with a guy yesterday and afterwords, I ran my 300T around the lot, digging some rock piles, etc. I made it a point to check visibility out the right side and all I'll say is that with the boom in "carry" position, you can see the outside of the right track by looking under. With it in the cradle position, you can look over the boom and still see the top of the track.

I guess I won't beat a dead horse and finally just agree to disagree on the visibility issue.

What you are forgetting is that I'm just a "sales" guy and would most certainly look like a monkey effing a football compared to someone with your operating skills in a competition (that was a compliment, take it as such). I can operate, but I don't do it every day. As long as I got to pick the operator too, I would say "you're on." Unfortunately, I don't think either of us flying to Savannah is a feasable or cost effective alternative (good luck getting JCB to pay for that!). I will say this, should you ever get the wild hair to head to that part of the country, get a hold of me and I will arange a factory tour and some "demo" time. Hell, if you get to my part of the country, look me up and I'll convert you, I mean, show you our skids personally.

If anyone is going to Louisville, I'll most likely be around the JCB or Case IH booths (yes, I know it's a "farm" show and this is a construction forum, but hey, it's all big iron, so why not enjoy it!?) Feel free to hunt me down and introduce yourself.

 

[Yellowdog]

I can't believe I read most of this thread... I have a headache now..
I'm not sure how this became about JCB but here's my .02. I have only owned CAT and Bobcat so I can't speak for CASE but I trust KSSS's assessments and I wouldn't hesitate to take his advice if the need arose.. Case Alpha series looks great on paper and we'll soon know how they hold up in the field.

I like Bobcat M series (I own an s750 set up for mulching) over CAT c series but CAT has a lot of good features. I have not had the pleasure to demo a JD skid but if they are built anything like their work tools, I wouldn't hesitate there either.

I have checked out an older JCB. I was not impressed. After reading about the redesigned model, I was a little intrigued but share some of the others' opinions about the boom arm being on one side. Hefty or not, I can see picture a lot of flex.

I am not sure how they overcome the distribution of weight on one side but I thought I read the cab was slightly off-center.. I like things lined up in the middle.. but that's just me.

I rarely get out of my machine with the boom arms up. It's dangerous and I know of a guy who was killed albeit he was working on the machine. Still, it's necessary on occasion to get out and put the boom support in place. Have to hand it to JCB on that.

We also own a Bobcat toolcat. While not a skid steer, it does have a side entry and a big door that you have to reach way out to close.. It can be a PITA. I am just under 6' and I still have to lean to close it. It also has a lot of glass and it's a matter of time until something shatters a door glass or front windshield and I don't take it places that I take my Bobcat (and broke plenty of door glass there too).

If I could design a machine, that would be my favorite.. take a little here and a little there.
For now, I am happy with Bobcat but not 100% satisfied and I'm waiting for Bobcat to contact me to ask why. I've owned 12 or 13 skids (all Bobcat, one CAT) over 16 years and I still haven't found the perfect one. I think of all the models out there, it boils down to what works for the individual. I do about 40-45% mulching and the rest grapple and dirt work and other attachments with a skid. i think they are a great all-in-one tool but there are some serious deficiencies that need to be address... I can go on if anyone is interested in hearing my complaints/suggestions for improvement for Bobcat M series.

Oh and if KSSS is going to do a competition, I want to see him do it in a shiny new 320 against a new JCB CTL.

 

[dave esterns]

ah sweet. well u know with me and the others we always end up discussing the jcb. the comfort that you get with the jcb makes it worth it. yes i am interested in your complaints about the m series. i am not impressed with them at all. they were not bad when they were released, but a lot has changed since then. as far as comfort goes, i would say jcb, then deere, then case new holland, then cat, then bobcat.

my suggestion to bobcat would be to make a larger suspended modular quieter cab with easier entry and exit. the wiper motor is basically too big and in my way as well. screen setup hurts my view. case is not too bad. bobcat used to be 10 years ahead of anyone with their cab, now they are last i figure.

for the record, i have never come close to breaking a side window, but there are always things busting through the front window trying to attack me. seems to me the screens and such need to go on the front more than the sides.

 

[KSSS]

Ok, here's the last thing I'll say on the issue.....had a demo with a guy yesterday and afterwords, I ran my 300T around the lot, digging some rock piles, etc. I made it a point to check visibility out the right side and all I'll say is that with the boom in "carry" position, you can see the outside of the right track by looking under. With it in the cradle position, you can look over the boom and still see the top of the track.

I guess I won't beat a dead horse and finally just agree to disagree on the visibility issue.

What you are forgetting is that I'm just a "sales" guy and would most certainly look like a monkey effing a football compared to someone with your operating skills in a competition (that was a compliment, take it as such). I can operate, but I don't do it every day. As long as I got to pick the operator too, I would say "you're on." Unfortunately, I don't think either of us flying to Savannah is a feasable or cost effective alternative (good luck getting JCB to pay for that!). I will say this, should you ever get the wild hair to head to that part of the country, get a hold of me and I will arange a factory tour and some "demo" time. Hell, if you get to my part of the country, look me up and I'll convert you, I mean, show you our skids personally.

If anyone is going to Louisville, I'll most likely be around the JCB or Case IH booths (yes, I know it's a "farm" show and this is a construction forum, but hey, it's all big iron, so why not enjoy it!?) Feel free to hunt me down and introduce yourself.

Fair enough. If I find myself in that area we'll do lunch. There's a Deere salesman on another forum that I conversed with. I met him in person while I was in Huntsville this Spring. Had a good time, ate a lot BBQ and ran some Deere equipment. Its all good.

 

[KSSS]

ah sweet. well u know with me and the others we always end up discussing the jcb. the comfort that you get with the jcb makes it worth it. yes i am interested in your complaints about the m series. i am not impressed with them at all. they were not bad when they were released, but a lot has changed since then. as far as comfort goes, i would say jcb, then deere, then case new holland, then cat, then bobcat.

my suggestion to bobcat would be to make a larger suspended modular quieter cab with easier entry and exit. the wiper motor is basically too big and in my way as well. screen setup hurts my view. case is not too bad. bobcat used to be 10 years ahead of anyone with their cab, now they are last i figure.

for the record, i have never come close to breaking a side window, but there are always things busting through the front window trying to attack me. seems to me the screens and such need to go on the front more than the sides.

I broke my first side window a couple days ago. I was pushing numerous loads of trees, limbs and roots in a pile to burn. I was using the 465. On the sides one window is outside the metal mesh and the other inside. A limb somehow got wrapped around the wheel and launched itself into the side of the cage, of course on the back window that is outside the mesh. Window vaporized as did $240.00

 

[Yellowdog]

I can see that happening to my machine...

ouch..

 

[dave esterns]

I can't believe I read most of this thread... I have a headache now..


I have checked out an older JCB. I was not impressed. After reading about the redesigned model, I was a little intrigued but share some of the others' opinions about the boom arm being on one side. Hefty or not, I can see picture a lot of flex.


Oh and if KSSS is going to do a competition, I want to see him do it in a shiny new 320 against a new JCB CTL.

as far as flex goes, its not like you dont get it with a standard skid steer; just for the heck of it i put the corner of the bucket under an immovable object with the bobcat, lifted up, and got the other end of the bucket about ten inches off the ground so...

 

[stuvecorp]

as far as flex goes, its not like you dont get it with a standard skid steer; just for the heck of it i put the corner of the bucket under an immovable object with the bobcat, lifted up, and got the other end of the bucket about ten inches off the ground so...

There goes your resale now...

 

[dave esterns]

haha, the bobcat cant hurt itself... its a balanced machine

 

[KSSS]

There goes your resale now...

Your not kidding. Your saying your got 10" of flex from one side of your bucket to the other? WOW you really need to get out of that machine. Just for the record, thats excessive.

 

[dave esterns]

haha that is a sweet feature for scraping uneven concrete!! for the record, that was an 8 foot bucket. i would imagine we will keep the bobcat and take it to another farm for odd jobs and such for its retirement. ah ic a while back we took it in for an electrical problem, which is funny cuz it has no electrical, and they sent us the bill for $3500, so that was awesome. im pretty sure only one lift cylinder is doing most of the work these days, that is the feeling im getting. oh, and one of the tilt cylinders got nicked by the grinder doing a weld job; surprisingly filling the nick in with weld has held up for 500 hours now...just a little leaking...

 

[barklee]

After reading all this about you kickin the crap out of the Bobcat for 10,000hrs i would think you would buy nothing but a bobcat! Hell anyone that wonders what kind of machine to buy would be interested to see all the abuse you have put yours through. I have a feeling you get bored like i do, you know something works and works well but still shop around looking for the next thing. I would be interested in checking out the new JCB/ Volvos, but i would have to absolutely steal one! There is no way i would buy a new one, i only keep anything about 3-5 years. I can promise that the resale would absolutely kill anybody who bought one of those machines and tried to sell or trade every couple of years.
I guess if a guy was gonna ride the thing into the ground like the old bobcat there, than it really wouldnt matter.... Im gonna sit on the sidelines for a few years and wait for a cheapo to pop up on the auctions and see what happens. In the mean time i would love to run one, but i dont even think there is a stocking dealer within a 100 miles of here. Too bad, i bet they are sweet machines.

 

[dave esterns]

yea, i might be wrong to take for granted the reliability of the bobcat and assume that any other brand would be the same way. i really cant imagine having any type of breakdown with a machine with less than 4000 hours on it...i would be pisd!!

sure the responsible thing would be to pick up a low hour s185 for 25k.

but yes i get bored and dont see any fun in spending more than 20some years in basically the same machine. 40 years if you count the non 773 bobcats which were not much different either.

if it was up to me (and i guess it is) every tractor on the farm would be a different brand that way i could drive a machine according to what mood i was in that day.

if bobcat had small m series i would consider them, but i dont like how they are loud inside the cab/not to mention the dealer would be mad i dont want standard controls.

im in a highly special situation in my area with bobcat and jcb. im convinced cost per hour would be no higher trading every few years between bobcat and jcb. although im sure the cost either way would be... high.