Who makes your favorite skid steer?

[KSSS]

Where are you in NE Montana? If your close to a CASE CE dealer your support will be excellent (Titan Equipment). If you only have the ag support it is hit and miss how good they will be. Some of the ag service guys are only marginal on supporting the CE equipment in my view. The Bismarck Titan store has a good reputation but a long way for you to go. I am not sure if there is a CE store in NW North Dakota or not. Given all the activity over there, it would not surprise me if they had a store in Williston or Minot.

 

[jakelly]

I am in Wolf Point. I commute to Williston everyday. Titan is there I believe, if not they will be soon. Of course, I think every company will be there soon. You think that Case may be the way to go?

 

[jakelly]

Distance is a moot point here. Wal-mart is 100 miles away, I don't mind the driving.

 

[dave esterns]

i have always wondered, do the ce places care if i bring my skid steer in to get worked on when its completely full of cow manure?

 

[KSSS]

Here we have a large ag and CE store combined. They treat dirt and manure the same way. They power wash the machine and it costs you some extra money.

As far as chosing the CASE, yea that would be my pick. The Gehl branded Tak is solid, but they break as well (my dealer is also a Tak dealer). Your service will be much better with CASE than Gehl. The 440CT and wheeled is an excellent machine. What year is the 440 your looking at?

 

[KSSS]

the standard ones.

If by standard you mean direct linkage, it is what it is. If you mean standard as in E/H tell him to keep in contact with his dealer some very significant updates are coming.

My thoughts on deciding between direct and E/H would be this (keep in mind that tracked machines only come with E/H so my decision was made for me in my instance). Direct will never be anything more than what it is. Its cheaper, more fatiguing to run, and more than likely more reliable since there is a lot less to go wrong. E/H is the opposite of all those things, however it is an emerging technology and while running it during a demo took me about half the alotted time just to get used to its behavior, it will continue to get better. It will be more pleasurable to run which makes it more productive. The improvements are coming fast with the Alpha series, soon I feel that you wont know the difference between pilot and E/H as far as feel and response unless someone tells you. That is based on nothing more than my hunch that Witchita will keep the "pedal to the metal" on the evolution of this product.

 

[jakelly]

2002 - I started my own thread.

 

[dave esterns]

ah, he has the manual controls. when he was buying he asked my opinion i told him you wont have any problems with the manual controls, but you will not like them. what is with the giant tires they are putting on these machines all the sudden? so bobcat has been in the eh business for like 10 years now, do they not have it down yet? i see they have a 3 year warranty on them. ah i would imagine jcb has er all figured....

 

[Ropinghorns]

The Kubota SVL is the best I have seen. I love the Bobcats that I own and like the Newholland that I just got. But that Kubota is really nice. I havent worked one yet. One thing I like about Bobcat is our dealer in Tulsa rents them so we can try them out first. If you bring yours in for service, they rent you one like it for half price too. Great guys to deal with.

 

[JCBiron]

the robot arm isn't going to convince anyone any more than it already has had a chance to do in the years since it was first introduced to the US.

The single arm actually wasn't the problem before, it was the lack of refinement on the rest of the machine. The old cabs sucked, and we didn't have a lot of the features needed to compete with the other guys. Those issues have been addressed on the new machines, the single arm is in a lot of instances, icing on the cake for most guys, for reasons stated below.

The single arm, in my view has always been a solution in search of a problem.

I have to disagree with this as well. 20 Years ago was JCB trying to build a better moustrap? Maybe. Differentiate themselves? Maybe. But I think it is a bit neglectful to say that the only benefit of the single arm is safety (which should be higher on all of our lists, including mine). Additionally, ingress and egress is much improved, visibility is superior to anything out there, maintenance is reduced, and it's guaranteed for life. All nice characteristics when thinking about a skid loader.

I may as well add it to my signature, but it all comes down to your dealer....if you have no local support for a particular brand, it is hard to argue in that brand's favor, not matter what the sticker on the side says. All I can say is that we are getting SSL and CTL deals with these new JCB machines that we wouldn't have gotten with the old ones. Market share? Time will tell.

 

[KSSS]

The single arm actually wasn't the problem before, it was the lack of refinement on the rest of the machine. The old cabs sucked, and we didn't have a lot of the features needed to compete with the other guys. Those issues have been addressed on the new machines, the single arm is in a lot of instances, icing on the cake for most guys, for reasons stated below.
I have to disagree with this as well. 20 Years ago was JCB trying to build a better moustrap? Maybe. Differentiate themselves? Maybe. But I think it is a bit neglectful to say that the only benefit of the single arm is safety (which should be higher on all of our lists, including mine). Additionally, ingress and egress is much improved, visibility is superior to anything out there, maintenance is reduced, and it's guaranteed for life. All nice characteristics when thinking about a skid loader.

I may as well add it to my signature, but it all comes down to your dealer....if you have no local support for a particular brand, it is hard to argue in that brand's favor, not matter what the sticker on the side says. All I can say is that we are getting SSL and CTL deals with these new JCB machines that we wouldn't have gotten with the old ones. Market share? Time will tell.

I think there is no doubt that safety is the only benefit. There is little visibility off the right side of the machine once the arm is in a travel position. Egress is easier but I attribute that to safety aspect already acknowledged.

I agree that the single arm was not the only issue the older SSL product line. However I think its easy to mix customers preconcieved issues and actual issues. There is no doubt at least its my view that mainstream customers dont view the standard entry into a skid steer as a serious safety issue. They just don't and we all probably should, but until that happens the single arm is as I said a solution in search of a problem. Without that the safety aspect you have nothing. I already said I disagree with visibilty. Loader arms dont fail on anyones machine with enough frequency to cause concern. JCB has to offer that because many dont think it can hold up. No one else needs to prove their loader arms so no one else is going to warranty their loader arms. When a customer has questions of durbility with a JCB loader are its easy to shut him up with "its warrantied" (if you pay for it).

JCB's inability to sell these machines in the past is at least a three part problem. The single arm causes concerns (many unfounded but back to the preception thing), the machines were terrible from a performance standpoint. Lastly dealer support is highly suspect in many parts of NA. There are other issues like zero resale and so forth. If JCB fixed the performance issues, you have one leg of the stool on and it had to start there. Now it will take about Billion dollars in advertising, JCB road shows bringing their machines across the Country in head to head competetions and lastly dealers like yourself willing to work hard at selling these machines, because these machines for the vast majority of customers will never sell themselves.

We likely will have to agree to disagree. Your a JCB dealer and I am an end user that doesn't use your product (at least your JCB product line) so you need to stand up for your product which you have always done in common sense way. I think if there is any serious hope in gaining acceptance in this market it may hinge on Volvo's ability to gain access to markets JCB doesnt have access to. The fact that JCB may have gotten the rest of the machine right will certainly make your job easier.

 

[JCBiron]

I think there is no doubt that safety is the only benefit. There is little visibility off the right side of the machine once the arm is in a travel position. Egress is easier but I attribute that to safety aspect already acknowledged.

I think this is a pretty absurd statement. Yes, visibility is limited to the right side of the machine with the boom in a certain position. So is every other skid steer, ON BOTH SIDES. That would be like me telling you visibility out of your TV380 is terrible because when I try to look past the rear loader loader linkage I can't see. Of course you can't see. What you're (not "your"...sorry, had to get you back for the subjective/factual correction) forgetting is the other 270 degrees of completely unobstructed view. I know that you sat in the machines at ConEx last year, but have you ever ran a new machine to experience the visibility first-hand? If so, then I would "agree to agree to disagree." If not, then you owe Dave an apology. It's easy to discount the visibility when you're wearing blinders....

I agree that the single arm was not the only issue the older SSL product line. However I think its easy to mix customers preconcieved issues and actual issues. There is no doubt at least its my view that mainstream customers dont view the standard entry into a skid steer as a serious safety issue. They just don't and we all probably should, but until that happens the single arm is as I said a solution in search of a problem. Without that the safety aspect you have nothing. I already said I disagree with visibilty. Loader arms dont fail on anyones machine with enough frequency to cause concern. JCB has to offer that because many dont think it can hold up. No one else needs to prove their loader arms so no one else is going to warranty their loader arms. When a customer has questions of durbility with a JCB loader are its easy to shut him up with "its warrantied" (if you pay for it).

Loader arms do, in fact, fail. Every day, no, but I did just sell a guy a new 260 JCB and the previous two NH units he had, the booms broke. Now, I realize NH is not necessarily the pedigree when it comes to skids (although they are 4th in market share), but it does happen. You have actually proven the reason JCB made the boom warranty an "add on." If a guy feels he needs the extra piece of mind on his boom, so be it. If not, he doesn't have to purchase it. Regardless, JCB is willing to put their money where their mouth is and back it should the customer want this added protection.

The single arm also provides more space to have the largest cab in the industry, the lowest SAE service audit scores, and (again, agreeing to disagree) the easiest entry and exit. Is it that difficult to crawl over a bucket, not really. But what about other types of attachments that are irregularly shaped/designed? To say it isn't easier, regardless of your brand allegience, is simply denying the facts.

JCB's inability to sell these machines in the past is at least a three part problem. The single arm causes concerns (many unfounded but back to the preception thing), the machines were terrible from a performance standpoint. Lastly dealer support is highly suspect in many parts of NA. There are other issues like zero resale and so forth. If JCB fixed the performance issues, you have one leg of the stool on and it had to start there. Now it will take about Billion dollars in advertising, JCB road shows bringing their machines across the Country in head to head competetions and lastly dealers like yourself willing to work hard at selling these machines, because these machines for the vast majority of customers will never sell themselves.

We likely will have to agree to disagree. Your a JCB dealer and I am an end user that doesn't use your product (at least your JCB product line) so you need to stand up for your product which you have always done in common sense way. I think if there is any serious hope in gaining acceptance in this market it may hinge on Volvo's ability to gain access to markets JCB doesnt have access to. The fact that JCB may have gotten the rest of the machine right will certainly make your job easier.

I agree with most of your last statement with the exception of the Volvo part. I don't think the Volvo-branded JCB will do anything but help JCB for the reason you stated, but I also don't believe that JCB's success with their skid hinges on Volvo either. Much of it will come down to your other suggestions of Road Shows/Demos/Dealer strength. It's a shame that you and I aren't closer, as I enjoy disputing the facts with you, and would love an opportunity to demonstrate a machine to you. Keep in mind, I also sell Case, so your brand loyalty could be a lot worse!

 

[xcmark]

this is almost like the presidental election that comeing up! bottom line is every piece of steel that moves dirt is going to cost money for repairs and drink fuel , yellow , white blue or gray they are all the same...... Being a JCB owner (only because it was priced right used) the parts will take all the fun out of repairs.......

 

[KSSS]

LOL! I like to think I am more open minded than you make me out to be. None of what I commented on has anything to do with CASE or my purchase decisions. I think my points stand on their own and while you and I may disagree with their validity, never the less I think they are logical and common held thoughts on JCB skid steers. I think overall I am very fair to JCB in my opinions. I have no interested in running down JCB or any other OEM to benefit CASE. I am a long time CASE customer and I am fairly versed in them. However before I bought my TR320, I seriously demoed a 279C. I need to be productive because productive makes me money, while I have favored CASE, I will buy what I think gives me the best opportunity to be productive and profitable. While I encourage guys to demo a CASE, that is as far as I go. If you like it, buy it, if not buy something else. Thats as far as my "Blinders" go.

The difference with visibility is this. While your obstruction is only to the right side and none to the left, it is a MASSIVE obstruction. I dont need to demo it to see the issue. The right side visibility is limited at best. So if given an option, I would rather have two smaller obstructions on both sides than all and nothing as with the JCB (or lets agree at very little). Would you not agree with that?

I dont disagree that it is easier to get in and out of. I accept that the side door has advantages and perhaps some disadvantages. My main point is that I believe that most customers either dont see the benefit or think it is significant enough to buy a skid steer built around that concept.

I didn't say that JCB's success hinged completely on Volvo. I just think its a huge opportunity for JCB. Volvo has more dealerships and is more accepted in North America. That will get your machine a demo when it normally would not. It will be up to the machine to make the sale after that. That being said Volvo couldnt sell their own (well Scat Trac's) skid steers, but now I think they have a much more refined machine to sell, guess we will see how it does.

I wish you the best of luck with JCB. I mean that. The fact that as a dealer your willing to debate your machines attributes on an online forum says a lot. You believe in what your selling (even if the rest of North America doesn't). I am kidding! I am kidding!

 

[KSSS]

this is almost like the presidental election that comeing up! bottom line is every piece of steel that moves dirt is going to cost money for repairs and drink fuel , yellow , white blue or gray they are all the same...... Being a JCB owner (only because it was priced right used) the parts will take all the fun out of repairs.......

True, but debating the issue is more entertaining than sweeping the shop floor again.

 

[JCBiron]

The difference with visibility is this. While your obstruction is only to the right side and none to the left, it is a MASSIVE obstruction. I dont need to demo it to see the issue. The right side visibility is limited at best. So if given an option, I would rather have two smaller obstructions on both sides than all and nothing as with the JCB (or lets agree at very little). Would you not agree with that?

I dont disagree that it is easier to get in and out of. I accept that the side door has advantages and perhaps some disadvantages. My main point is that I believe that most customers either dont see the benefit or think it is significant enough to buy a skid steer built around that concept.

I didn't say that JCB's success hinged completely on Volvo. I just think its a huge opportunity for JCB. Volvo has more dealerships and is more accepted in North America. That will get your machine a demo when it normally would not. It will be up to the machine to make the sale after that. That being said Volvo couldnt sell their own (well Scat Trac's) skid steers, but now I think they have a much more refined machine to sell, guess we will see how it does.

I went ahead and took the liberty of taking a few measurements on the TR270 I have on my lot vs. a JCB 225T. Both machines are radial lift boom styles, although the 225T is a slightly bigger machine. The booms on the TR270 measure 10". Your argument would be more true had Case (not picking on Case only, but that is what I had for comparison's sake) decided to not extend the outer plate of the arms further than the actual boom. It gives the appearance of a larger arm. Why would anyone want their loader arms to appear larger? I take it as a compliment when someone describes our Powerboom as "massive". Speaking of, the JCB Powerboom on the 225T (or any large frame machine for that matter), measures 12". So this massive disparity between JCB's Powerboom and a Case (again, only using them because that's what I had....I'm sure other OEM's are similar) is a whopping 2".

So lets sum up. We have a total of 12" of obstruction on the right side of our machine. The Case TR270 has a 10" obstruction on each side, for 20" of total obstruction. Now I know that I am over-simplifying by adding the numbers together, but it does make my point. Most people who have never operated a JCB machine have a pre-conceived notion that the boom is SO much larger it HAS to get in the way. Larger? Yes. But when you compare the immense benefit of the other 3 directions of visibility, the 2" ends up not amounting to a hill of beans (that's what she said, right?).

The other thing is that you would be surprised at how many customers actually point out the side entry as a benefit. Is this alone enough to justify a purchase? Of course not. However, now that we finally have a machine to go with that feature, like I stated in an earlier post, it's icing on the cake.

In my opinion, at least in my market, Volvo's issues for skids could also be attributed to what I like to call the "Komatsu Effect". Why did Komatsu get out of the compact equipment line? (with the exception of mini Ex's) Because they couldn't convince their dealers that their time was as well spent selling a SSL or CTL as it was selling a 40T haul truck, or a PC400. I think this could have been true with Volvo also, and depending on the dealer, may remain the case even with a better product to sell. Now I'm not speaking specifically for my local dealer, as I am not familiar enough with their operation, but I think this general statement can be argued.

Lastly, if only our current batch of Presidential candidates could debate as intelligently and civilly as KSSS and I have, we would all be better off!!!

 

[dave esterns]

i like the direction this thread is going!

 

[xcmark]

True, but debating the issue is more entertaining than sweeping the shop floor again.

I guess all the winter PM's are done and nothing needs wrenching ? anyway thank you for your objective opinion on all subject. I see all to often some A hole will run there mouth or key board in this case on a subject that isnt helpfull.

 

[xcmark]

"Lastly, if only our current batch of Presidential candidates could debate as intelligently and civilly as KSSS and I have, we would all be better off!!!" [/QUOTE]

very true , I only wished they had the same common sense that we have. how many trillion did he ask china for and how many time? Its like going out back and picking the money tree ! dont fix it just spend it we can print more. I for one shop by where a product is made , go out and by a pair of socks made in the USA . Not many companys make stuff here in the USA anymore and if we dont start seeing this and acting on it we will be worse then the Russians economy. FYI Koles had New Ballance socks made in the USA around Xmass .

Rant over ! and again Thank you!

 

[dave esterns]

who is the a hole??

as far as the jcb boom containing more steel than the competition. it needs to. we are only lifting a few thousand pounds; its not like it takes a lot to do that.

the visibility argument is hard to argue on boom width alone. bottom line is jcb has what something like 80 degrees SAE additional visiblity over competition.