Welding the buckets JD 310c Backhoe/loader

[DMiller]

I have two smaller tote sized rod ovens, they are not strong enough to cook the moisture out of the rods so I use an old baking oven, set to 400 degrees until the flux sheath turns a richer gray color, then they go to the totes in small quantities. I will generally buy up to 25# at a time if I know I have a bigger job coming up. I usually buy 5# canisters and don't open the tins(I buy from a welding supply company and not discount stores) until I am ready to cook them up. Once cooked they will stay dry in a old fridge with a single 100W light bulb set in the bottom.

Another old welder trick on suspect rods, stick the rod to the plate and let it start to draw full amps with no arc, knock it loose and then start to weld. On such jobs as here, I will take a torch and heat the local area I will weld for a while on the repeat the process as I move around or await a really warm summer day to sweat out the job.

 

[Nige]

When welding with low-hydrogen electrodes it's always a good practice before starting to weld to pre-heat the workpiece to maybe 50 DegC (125 DegF) for maybe a 12" circle around the area you're planning on welding to drive out any moisture that may be there. A lot of people would be amazed at what comes out of steel even if you just wave an oxy-acetylene torch near it, sunny day or not.

 

[joeeye59]

When welding with low-hydrogen electrodes it's always a good practice before starting to weld to pre-heat the workpiece to maybe 50 DegC (125 DegF) for maybe a 12" circle around the area you're planning on welding to drive out any moisture that may be there. A lot of people would be amazed at what comes out of steel even if you just wave an oxy-acetylene torch near it, sunny day or not.

With the talk about custom built heat boxes for the 7018 rod storage I was thinking, the rod manufacturer must have information about this on their web site, and on the paper that comes with the rods.
I'm curious what their suggested recommendations are for storage once the package is opened. I'll take a look and even email them to see what they say.

 

[DMiller]

Most of rod control information comes as training from the welding schools and the information supplied from the rod manufacturers. Should be some information they should be able to supply you. Our nuclear rated and certified 7018 welding rods come into the plant in 25# tins, sealed from the factory, it is common knowledge they must be 'kilned' for at least 24 hours at 500 degrees F before they can be used in plant, rod issues sent out in heated totes have to be plugged in prior to use for 1/2 hour and if left unattended/unplugged for greater than 8 hours the rods are scrapped.

 

[joeeye59]

When welding with low-hydrogen electrodes it's always a good practice before starting to weld to pre-heat the workpiece to maybe 50 DegC (125 DegF) for maybe a 12" circle around the area you're planning on welding to drive out any moisture that may be there. A lot of people would be amazed at what comes out of steel even if you just wave an oxy-acetylene torch near it, sunny day or not.

What is it that you see on the steel when you said waiving a torch near it before welding it to remove the moisture? like steam? or a color change like pimples? I'm curious?

 

[lowbed driver]

We need to keep our unopened boxes of 7018 in a warm rod room, once opened,use some, the rest straight into the rod oven and heated to something like 400 deg F. Rods can only be reheated once and must be discarded there after.

All this is required for welding items for our clients, it is a little over kill for a guy wanting to weld his own bucket. Even the do it yourselfers need to keep 7018(or any low hydrogen rods) warm. They will weld better and give you a better finished weld , some would say stronger weld then that obtained with wet rods.

When you preheat if you look closely you will see a line moving away from flame. This is moisture that is in the steel due to steel being porous. Moisture in steel and rods will lead to "Hydrogen induced cold cracking". During the weld process any hydrogen will turn into atomic hydrogen. When the weld cools, the atomic hydrogen returns to hydrogen which requires something like 400 times the area(or volume) then atomic Hydrogen particles so pressure builds up and "BANG" something has to give which is usually the weld or area right beside the weld and a crack develops. Go into a shop an hour or two after quitting time that is not preheating or keeping rods dry and you will hear welds letting go.

 

[norite]

To keep welding electrodes (esp. low hydrogen ones) dry after opening the packet all you need to do is build a small sealed cupboard with a 60W lamp constantly burning in it.

I hate to disagree with you Nige, I always read your posts and learn so much from them but go to Lincoln's website or any man'f of 7018 rod and see their storage requirements once a package of rods is open. I started out with an old fridge with a light bulb years ago and while probably better than leaving them out unprotected from the humidity, you are just exposing them to less than the ambient humidity, not eliminating it. In Canada CWB (similar to AWS) certification can be lost by a welding shop if they are found by an inspector, not keeping opened rods in an oven before and during use.

 

[Nige]

I agree with you regarding the electrode manufacturer's recommendations, however there are times when following them slavishly is not necessarily the way to go. We're not doing coded welding, only welding scabby lumps of mining machinery, so those rules don't apply either. TBH the one thing I insist on is preheating all steel that is going to be welded simply to drive out the moisture.

Let's not over-think this. It started as a discussion about how to help a guy repair a backhoe bucket. All of a sudden we're building a nuclear power plant........

 

[DMiller]

Besides heating the steel (you can actually see the steel clear away as the moisture leaves, at first will be a ring where hit it with torch) you need to grinder or flap disc remove any mill finish or remnant skin of corrosion. Black oxide 'rust' is as hard or harder to weld through than brown rust, will even make slag more difficult to deal with. You need a shiny region of fresh cleaned steel to get a good finish weld.

I too am a rough duty welder Nige, not so much to code but closer than just scabbing things together as so many do. I don't like to redo my redo's if I don't have to so a better weld with a better rod gives me more field time than down time. My old Allis has a lot of previous owner scabs I clear away as I can and as they fail, amazing how many try to use flux core wire welders on heavy machinery.

 

[joeeye59]

How about we make this more complicated lol….

I just received the delivery of the E7018 Welding Rods, printed on the side of the box the rods are packaged in are the notations about the rod, then I read about half way down the paragraph where it says, "This electrode is recommended for welding hardened steels where "no" preheat is used". Oh Geeeze! what now lol...?

The brand name of this E-7018 I got is called Firepower by Victor Technologies International, inc. Looks like they distribute world wide.

So should I guess there are other versions of the 7018..? I was assuming each rod marked with a number was a standardized rod, so if you ran out and bought another brand while on the road it was going to be the same results.

I don't mean to sound like I'm building a nuclear submarine with the questions sometimes going off on being too technical... like Nige said, "I'm just someone fixing a hoe bucket" who now has been armed with some good knowledge that I appreciate having learned from everyone. I'm also a hack welder, so I appreciate hearing from everybody.

The 7018 rods were delivered yesterday, they are packaged in a thin cardboard wrapped with plastic, when I opened the box they were delivered in the cardboard box the rods were packaged in were all destroyed, so obviously the rods have been exposed to moisture having been smashed open…., at this point I'm not going to worry about this and just use them, like it was mentioned I'm not building a submarine, as long as it holds…. maybe pictured today of the cracked bucket...

I don't know how often this happens to anybody else, no matter which delivery company delivers a package to my house that has something heavy inside like the 5 lb box of welding rods, every single time without fail I can expect it to be delivered to my home all smashed up as if the packaged was kicked down the road all the way to my house rather than driven in a motor vehicle. even with my ammo too…. I'm going to start a photo album of each box.

 

[Nige]

Joe, we need to differentiate between "preheat" which usually means heating the steel to be welded to something like 300-400 DegF before starting to weld (usually used when welding more "exotic" steels) and "warming sufficient to drive out the moisture from cold steel". You're warming, not pre-heating - so you're good to go. E7018 is a standard, any electrode manufactured to that standard is going to be pretty much the same. As you've probably gathered from what's been posted so far low hydrogen electrodes don't like moisture, so drive it out of the steel before you start.

Good point from DMiller about getting rid of all the black crap as opposed to just the red/brown rust which is also a good practice.

Still waiting for your photos .......

 

[joeeye59]

Joe, we need to differentiate between "preheat" which usually means heating the steel to be welded to something like 300-400 DegF before starting to weld (usually used when welding more "exotic" steels) and "warming sufficient to drive out the moisture from cold steel". You're warming, not pre-heating - so you're good to go. E7018 is a standard, any electrode manufactured to that standard is going to be pretty much the same. As you've probably gathered from what's been posted so far low hydrogen electrodes don't like moisture, so drive it out of the steel before you start.

Good point from DMiller about getting rid of all the black crap as opposed to just the red/brown rust which is also a good practice.

Still waiting for your photos .......

Okay Nige, I see what you mean.

I can't wait to start the job now that I have learned how to do this the right way, I just need to practice now.

The rods are very unusual looking, having a smooth glossy finish, seems like a ceramic finish.

It's an over cast wet day here today, so not sure how good of a picture day it will be, but I'll try anyway and post what I take.

 

[Nige]

Post your photos and give me a chance to see if I can find some documentation giving detailed "how to do it" procedure before you start burning rods on your cracks.

 

[joeeye59]

Here are the pictures of the Hoe bucket. Of course this is damage from pushing rocks using the edge.

 

[joeeye59]

Loader Pictures… John Deere 310C The pictures where the arms that connect to the loader bucket seems like its not a crack as much as where the edge of the two bars of steel were joined together with out welding, but it looks like a crack, 3 pictures down, not sure what to make of this.

 

[joeeye59]

More Loader bucket...

 

[Nige]

Mega - now the dog can see the rabbit. Give me a day or so to see what I can dig up. Meantime send me a PM with your e-mail address so that I can send you whatever I find. I can't send attachments via the HEF site e-mail.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . There always seems to be a lot of discussion about rods which leaves me a bit bemused.

I built my first bull bar for a Landrover when I was thirteen and here, nearly sixty years later, after thousands of repairs, building dozens of trailers, a twenty meter steel trawler, several smaller boats, various sheds and Lord alone knows what else I have only ever used three rods, a basic GP 6012/6013, a low hydrogen, (usually preheated on the manifold of the Perkins) and lots of Iron Powder . . . and Oh yeah make that four, a bit of stainless when required.

All the fancy stuff, cast and what-all I did with TIG.

On straight forward repairs like on a backhoe bucket why would you stuff around with low hydrogen. Grind it out and, on the flat, flow some hot iron powder in there and put it back to work.

If you are a part time welder a good GP with a bit of preheat and high amps will hold better on stuff like cutting edge than gorilla snot low hydrogen.

Them's my thoughts anyway, others will disagree.

Cheers.

 

[joeeye59]

Final pics of the loader, no more picture unless you like to ask for more. This is the loader showing the crack on the outside and inside the loader bucket.

 

[Nige]

On straight forward repairs like on a backhoe bucket why would you stuff around with low hydrogen. Grind it out and, on the flat, flow some hot iron powder in there and put it back to work.

If you are a part time welder a good GP with a bit of preheat and high amps will hold better on stuff like cutting edge than gorilla snot low hydrogen.

As always our Colonial friend makes a valid point ..............

Joe, PM me your e-mail address. I've found a load of bedtime reading for you ...............