Welding the buckets JD 310c Backhoe/loader

[joeeye59]

I'm not sure if I missed where I can post this other than here? being I'm welding a backhoe I figured its okay?

I have a 310c John Deere and will be ARC stick welding the cracks on the loader and hoe buckets, as well as doing some custom repair patch work on the loader bucket only.

As far as the machine it self it's as solid as can be, no other cracks anywhere at all, just the typical front and rear buckets need welding and repairs.

The issue I have is I need help in choosing the correct welding rod"s".

I'm not sure what kind of metal/steel the buckets are made of, because when looking at the welding rods I see they call out rods for "Low Alloy" "Mild Steel" "Low Hydrogen".

I'd appreciate hearing from anybody. thanks...

Joe

I WANTED TO CUT AND PASTE BELOW THIS INFO I FOUND THAT I THOUGHT WAS HELPFUL BEING IT TALKS ABOUT THE KINDS OF METALS I MENTIONED. ALSO, IF SOMEONE WANTED TECHNICAL SPECS ON METALS AND STEEL APPLICATIONS.


Low alloy steel is gener-ally defined as having a 1.5% to 5% total alloy content. Common alloying elements aremanganese, silicon, chromium, nickel, molybdenum, and vanadium.

Low alloy steels may contain as many as four or five of these alloys in varying amounts.1.2.2.1 Low alloy steels have higher tensile and yield strengths than mild steel or carbon structural steel. Since they have high strength-to-weight ratios, they reduce dead weight in railroad cars, truck frames, heavy equipment, etc.1.2.2.2.

Ordinary carbon steels, that exhibit brittleness at low temperatures, are unreliable in critical applications. Therefore, low alloy steels with nickel additions are often used for low temperature situations.1.2.2.3.

Steels lose much of their strength at high temperatures. To provide for this loss of strength at elevated temperatures, small amounts of chromium or molybdenum areadded.1.2.3 High Alloy Steel - This group of expensive and specialized steels contain alloylevels in excess of 10%, giving them outstanding properties.1.2.3.1. Austenitic manganese steel contains high carbon and manganese levels, that give it two exceptional qualities, the ability to harden while undergoing cold work and great toughness.

The term austenitic refers to the crystalline structure of these steels.1.2.3.2. Stainless steels are high alloy steels that have the ability to resist corrosion. This characteristic is mainly due to the high chromium content, i.e., 10% or greater. Nickel isalso used in substantial quantities in some stainless steels.1.2.3.3. Tool steels are used for cutting and forming operations. They are high quality steels used in making tools, punches, forming dies, extruding dies, forgings and so forth. Depending upon their properties and usage, they are sometimes referred to as waterhardening, shock resisting, oil hardening, air hardening, and hot work tool steel.1.2.3.4. Because of the high levels of alloying elements, special care and practices arerequired when welding high alloy steels.

 

[Delmer]

I don't know if the cutting edges approach low alloy or not, but it really doesn't matter to you and me. Forget all that technical stuff and weld with the rod you can use best. Most importantly, take the buckets off the hoe so you don't burn out your alternator, or at least make sure you have a good ground close to the welding and disconnect the battery cables.

For welding on the cutting edge you might want to preheat and look a little more into technique. The rest of the bucket can be welded however is easiest.

 

[mitch504]

I have welded buckets from 12" backhoe to 84" trackhoe many times and gotten very good results with 7018s.

If you look around the net or talk to people, you will hear and see a lot about welding cutting edges. I have welded cutting edges many, many times with 7018 with no problems.

BTW, 7018 is a low hydrogen rod.

 

[Catback]

Jfyi: Low hydrogen welding is super tough. It is tougher to run a bead (unless you're a good welder), but it is also super strong.

 

[monster76]

remember its not just welding, grinding the crack and filling in with the welder will be much more effective than just welding on top of the cracks

 

[mitch504]

Oh, and one more thing, make sure your ground clamp is on the bucket itself. Otherwise you are passing current through the pins, bushings, cylinders and etc. If there isn't a tight fit, you can actually get an arc between the pin and bushing.

 

[rust farmer]

Hey mitch504:
I'm agreeing with you on using 7018 welding rod. The place I work has shotblast machines. We are constantly welding holes closed on the cabinets. The 7018 rod works pretty good for welding on the mild steel parts of the cabinet, but the rod also allows you weld on the manganese liner. We do have special rod for welding manganese, but in a pinch the 7018 seems to work pretty good.

 

[joeeye59]

Thanks everybody! I appreciate all the information. It didn't cross my mind I can blow out electrical with welding current flow.

I'm going to post pictures in time when I begin really working on it in a few months, it's getting colder here and I have no garage, so working on it is going to stop soon.

I need to grind out a V on the crack thats on the 90º edge where the hoe bucket curves. I'm looking forward to tips and techniques on doing that.

But the challenge for me will be the loader bucket on how I should repair the bottom that contacts the dirt (pictures will follow in time), over all the entire loader bucket is in fairly decent shape, the forward leading cutting edge is in great shape, its a thick heavy flat bar straight as can be bolted into place, very thick and solid.

It's the underside of the loader bucket that's pitted with rust that touches the soil, made the metal thinner over time in places, I took an ice pick to it, and over all it's still solid, in okay shape, but was able to poke a BB size hole in one place, and I can see through another small BB size hole in another place, but not all of the bucket floor is as bad as other parts. then there is a crack going across side to side, about a foot or two long.

Then, the rear leading edge of the loader bucket floor is dented up and cracked having pulled away a little from the bucket floor, thats from going forward and backwards while back blading with the rear leading edge of the loader bucket.

Under the floor of the loader I was thinking about welding bead after bead next to each other to build up the material again, then grind smooth. Or if real bad in places maybe should section in panels in the worse places?

I'm sure pictures will help everyone get a handle on whats going on, so I'm looking forward to hearing from everyone on how they would do this, thanks again everyone.

Joe

 

[DMiller]

If you have never welded 7018 then find some scrap metal plates around the same thickness as your bucket, practice, practice and more practice until you can situate a decent bead at decent heat. Welding with 7018 can be miserable if you go at it like you're burning 6013 or drag rods. Also needs to be reasonable clean of rust, mill finish and dirt for these rods to not slag up so bad.

 

[joeeye59]

If you have never welded 7018 then find some scrap metal plates around the same thickness as your bucket, practice, practice and more practice until you can situate a decent bead at decent heat. Welding with 7018 can be miserable if you go at it like you're burning 6013 or drag rods. Also needs to be reasonable clean of rust, mill finish and dirt for these rods to not slag up so bad.

Good to know, thanks...

I have a 10 lb. box of 6013 coming and a back yard of some scrap metal to practice on...., I guess I really should get some 7018 as well now that you mention it.

You mentioned the metal needs to be rust free when using welding rod 7018, I didn't read that, so I guess I'll need to get a better look at the rusted pits on the underside of the loader bucket bottom, then post back.

 

[monster76]

nothing has to be but the cleaner the start the cleaner the finished product

 

[Delmer]

I'd be using 6011 (or 6010 if you have DC), it's easy to weld with, good penetration so you can skip the grinding, and tolerates rust and dirt.

I'd either take all the bottom out and patch the whole bottom, or just weld up the cracks and live with it. I'd have to see it, but I doubt it would be worth it to patch in little panels. If it's really small thin spots, you can build it up like that, 6013 would work smooth for that. Don't bother grinding it smooth, it's not a restoration is it? Better welders will say you have to grind out the cracks, but you'll be fine if you turn up the amps and weld it hot with 6011 from both sides, it's not like a production machine that's going to be back next month for another rebuild, it mostly rusted out after all.

 

[joeeye59]

I'd be using 6011 (or 6010 if you have DC), it's easy to weld with, good penetration so you can skip the grinding, and tolerates rust and dirt.

I'd either take all the bottom out and patch the whole bottom, or just weld up the cracks and live with it. I'd have to see it, but I doubt it would be worth it to patch in little panels. If it's really small thin spots, you can build it up like that, 6013 would work smooth for that. Don't bother grinding it smooth, it's not a restoration is it? Better welders will say you have to grind out the cracks, but you'll be fine if you turn up the amps and weld it hot with 6011 from both sides, it's not like a production machine that's going to be back next month for another rebuild, it mostly rusted out after all.

It's not a total restoration so I'm pretty sure I'll do what you said with welding it up, build it up....

The backhoe is in decent shape, well worth the 16k I paid for it 5 years ago, its the same machine in the icon picture that shows up in my posts. I also spent another 4k on it over the last few years on major parts and major mechanical items.

This hoe seem to be in huge demand where I am in CT., while I was looking for a backhoe I must have looked at 15 to 20 units before I bought this one, I ended up spending more than I wanted to, because anything priced at 13k and lower was ready for the scrap pile, pure junk that you would only keep around to have when you needed a backhoe once in a while like two or three times a year.

So I hate to see the backhoe not be kept up, and would like the repairs to look good.

I agree like you said to weld up the cracks and build up, I think thats right on the mark for this loader bucket.

I found a well used Montgomery WARD 250 AMP AC/DC ARC Welder for $90.00 two years ago. I didn't have the 220v service back then to test it, but now I just installed it this month so I hope the unit works good, it does turn on and sounds respectable, and I did get a spark out of it. As soon as my new equipment comes in I'll know more.

I hear a lot of people prefer DC welding for many reasons that sound good to me, so thats what I'll also use.

 

[DMiller]

Mild steel rods do weld easier but the welds won't last on high abrasion points and as stated are mild steel not alloy so have poor strength for flex or pressure. If you are using 6013, it should hold but you will be back into the weld stage quicker than if use low hydrogen 7018. 7018 welds better on DC and reverse polarity, better penetration, higher heat, stronger material.

Weld overlays with hard face rods will help with abrasive wear but you need a decent base.

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/AWTC/Lesson3_15.htm

 

[ol' Grump]

If my memory is any good it seems that Hobart makes an E 7018 AC rod that works well with DC or AC. It's much easier to run than a regular DC 7018 rod. Another good rod for buildup is E 7014 as it can be run in all positions with a higher deposition rate than E 6013.

 

[joeeye59]

Mild steel rods do weld easier but the welds won't last on high abrasion points and as stated are mild steel not alloy so have poor strength for flex or pressure. If you are using 6013, it should hold but you will be back into the weld stage quicker than if use low hydrogen 7018. 7018 welds better on DC and reverse polarity, better penetration, higher heat, stronger material.

Weld overlays with hard face rods will help with abrasive wear but you need a decent base.

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/AWTC/Lesson3_15.htm

I just read that using the 7018 rod the welds are more resistant to rusting.... so that was nice to have found out.

 

[joeeye59]

If my memory is any good it seems that Hobart makes an E 7018 AC rod that works well with DC or AC. It's much easier to run than a regular DC 7018 rod. Another good rod for buildup is E 7014 as it can be run in all positions with a higher deposition rate than E 6013.

Thanks I'll look for that 7018 rod by Hobart....

I'm yet to read up some more on this..., but I wonder if "all" the 7018 welding rods out there are all made with the same standard from company to company? such as the carbon to steel ratio that makes it the harder rod. If memory serves me right I believe the more carbon added to the steel makes it harder/brittle.

I appreciate all the feed back from everyone!

 

[Tinkerer]

I wouldn't take the bucket off to protect the alternator. If you are worried about damaging it with the welder, just unhook the wires. I have welded buckets on machines many times and haven't yet damaged an alternator that was hooked up. Maybe I have just been lucky. But always clamp the ground cable to the bucket.

 

[dirty_d]

Have you guys tried Arctec 223 rod? It's great. I don't know availability in the U.S. but if you can find it, give it a shot, and guaranteed you will switch.

 

[joeeye59]

I wouldn't take the bucket off to protect the alternator. If you are worried about damaging it with the welder, just unhook the wires. I have welded buckets on machines many times and haven't yet damaged an alternator that was hooked up. Maybe I have just been lucky. But always clamp the ground cable to the bucket.

I'm not set up to knock around a loader bucket of that size off the machine, wish I was but I'll just watch out like what Mitch504 said to look out for the arc between the bushings. I would figure keeping the ground very close to the work should do it?