.Water and oil mixing

[Reylocs]

Can somebody please give me some advice here. We have a John Deere 410 C. The engine is a 4276 Turbo. I just replace the oil filter and oil, and antifreeze. I checked the oil this morning and it's a little milky white. I checked the coolant in the radiator and it's about the same level. Can someone help me start to diagnose this problem.I was wondering if block sealer will work, and if so what brand should I get.

Thanks

 

[Reylocs]

Dropped the oil pan took cap off radiator. No water dripping from anywhere I can see. Do I try to pressurise the radiator? How is the best way and how much pressure should I keep it under?

Shawn

 

[JeremiahSr]

You can safely put 20 p.s.i. in water system. Leave oil pan off. The water is most likely coming through liner o-rings knowing the history of that engine. Could be the head gasket or oil cooler as well. This is of course after comfirnming there is no way for external water like from rain or flood is entering engine somewhere.

 

[Reylocs]

Ok, I pressurized the radiator to 15 lbs. Absolutely no water coming from anywhere. I am starting to wonder if this is a condensation issue. After about four hours, there was still grayish oil dripping out of every bearing. I wiped out the oil pan and it was extremely clean, no residue of any kind. Put the pan back on replaced oil and filter and started and ran for one hour. Before I started the engine, I checked the level in the radiator. Checked the oil and it is very slightly lighter then before I put it in. Im sure there was a little old (white) oil residue left in the engine, so that probably mixed with the new oil and made it slightly lighter in color.After the engine cooled I checked the level in radiator and there was none missing.
I am at a loss here. Does anyone have any suggestions. I just replaced a extremely worn out turbo, could this have contaminated the oil in any way? Should I just change the oil a few times to get all the old oil out of engine oil pasageways? Is there another way to fludh the oil system? I still have no clue where all this contamination came from. The guy I bought the machine off of was a homeowner that used the machine to build his house, then it was used just to remove snow from driveway in winter, but we had no snow. So the machine sat unused more often then not. Any suggestions on what to do next

Thanks for everyones help

 

[Nige]

Do you have any traces of oil in the radiator..? Even the slightest amount..?

If the answer is no then I suggest you run the engine and get it up to full operating temperature (get it really hot - no half measures), then drain the oil. Change the oil and filter and see how you go from there. It might also be advisable to pull the valve cover and clean the inside of it thoroughly and at the same time clean the engine crankcase breather system.

 

[Reylocs]

When I look in the radiator the coolant is green,the color of the antifreeze, (WITH ONE EXCEPTION). A week ago (after the machine sat for a week),I opened the radiator and there was this black cruddy looking stuff pn the top two inches of the radiator fluid. I should have skimmed it from the top, but I didn't. Should I pressure test the oil cooler?

Reylocs

 

[Nige]

In my opinion you have coolant in your oil and also oil in your coolant. That would indicate a transfer of fluids in both directions. Usually when the engine is running the oil pressure is higher than cooling system pressure and so oil transfers to the cooling system. When a hot engine is stopped the pressure in the hot cooling system will cause coolant to pass into the oil system. So forget what I said above about changing oil & filter, you have a problem that needs fixing before you go any further. If you haven't already done so I would suggest that you pressure test the cooler. I'm not familiar enough with your engine to know anywhere else where you might get transfer of oil to coolant & vice versa. Maybe someone else has some ideas.

 

[Reylocs]

How much pressure do I not exceed. I would assume there is a water side and an oil side.
Thanks for your help. Also, is the water that cools the oil from the radiator? I ask because I am not loosing rad. water, if so only unmeasurable amounts. How much water does it take to turn 2.5 gallons of oil slightly white. (I realize there is no exact answer to that).

Thanks again

 

[Nige]

If you pressurize it from the oil side you could easily go up to 75psi or even more, because that's what the oil pressure could well be when the engine is running. Start with 50psi to be on the safe side maybe.
Usually the same coolant in engine cooling system also runs through the oil cooler.
As to how much coolant will turn the oil pan contents white - a lot less than you might think. It would surprise me if you noticed any lowering of the coolant level to be honest.

 

[Reylocs]

BAD NEWS. There is no engine oil cooler on my machine. There is a transaxle and transmission cooler but no engine oil cooler. AND there is a 1/4 inch loss in fluid in the radiator. So now what are my choices? Can I use block sealer? If so can someone recommend a brand and the process. Or just follow instructions on bottle

 

[syndy]

Here is a thought. I have experienced this on inboard boats with fresh water cooling. When the engine is running water coats all surfaces of the engine water chambers and passage ways. When the engine is not running the water settles down just a little and may not touch the ceiling or upper most parts of some of those passageways.

If you did a radiator pressure test and only looked for water leaks and the leak is on the top side of a passageway you might not see any water. Do a pressure test at 15lbs or at a safe pressure and use a 25 or 30 lb gauge. Leave the test on overnight and see if the pressure stays up. If not and no water on the floor, (pan off) you may be able to figure out where it is.

 

[biggrader]

The engine oil cooler should be mounted on the side of the engine block. Sure sounds like to me that there is an issue with the cooler.

 

[Tinkerer]

The John Deere online parts book shows it to look like this.

 

[syndy]

Going back to my engineering days working in the titanium industry we made heat exchangers of all sizes, many with the same configuration as in the diagram. It looks like the water flow is through the inside of the tube bundle #10 with the top having a gasket and the bottom a O-ring(s). Oil would be on the outside of the bundle and it looks like the unit is connected directly to the engine block, no oil hoses. From working on these I would say there are three places to look for leaks. Top gasket, tube to flange both top and bottom, (these can be rolled or welded tube ends) and the bottom O-Ring(s). A fourth possibility and least suspect would be a corroded tube. If it is leaking and you take it apart you may never find the leak if it is an O-Ring or gasket. I would isolate it and do a pressure test on it first. Once you remove the tube bundle #10 there is not much to see as it would be hard to tell if the tube to flange was leaking and there is no way to do a pressure test out of the housing. My guess is one of the O-Rings, just saying!

 

[Reylocs]

I took the cooler apart today and the cooler was so dirty inside. I actually found twigs in there and lots of old rtv silicone particles( probably from like a oil pan where someone used silicone to install the pan gasket and some that oozed in the crankcase brook off and lodged on the oil cooler) Anyway its clean now. I will try to pressure test tomorrow.

ActuAlly you cAn do A pressure test on eAch individuAl tube in A bucket of wAter, by blockong one end of the tube and adding air to the other end again in water.

 

[syndy]

I took the cooler apart today and the cooler was so dirty inside. I actually found twigs in there and lots of old rtv silicone particles( probably from like a oil pan where someone used silicone to install the pan gasket and some that oozed in the crankcase brook off and lodged on the oil cooler) Anyway its clean now. I will try to pressure test tomorrow.

ActuAlly you cAn do A pressure test on eAch individuAl tube in A bucket of wAter, by blockong one end of the tube and adding air to the other end again in water.

That will only test the tube, not the joint to the flanges where it is either rolled, (expanded) or welded to the flange. Other than the gasket and O-rings that is where most heat exchangers leak.

 

[Reylocs]

Yes your correct.

Shawn

 

[Tinkerer]

If it were mine and I found that much garbage in the oil section of the cooler I would be taking the oil pan off and checking the engine oil pump screen. It may be a disaster about to happen.

 

[Reylocs]

Further up in the post I replied where I done that. But what I didn't say was that the oil screen pick up was aBsolutely clean also. plus the oil pan did not have any silicone on it so it may have come from a previous oil pan change or something else.

 

[syndy]

I took the cooler apart today and the cooler was so dirty inside. I actually found twigs in there and lots of old rtv silicone particles( probably from like a oil pan where someone used silicone to install the pan gasket and some that oozed in the crankcase brook off and lodged on the oil cooler) Anyway its clean now. I will try to pressure test tomorrow.

ActuAlly you cAn do A pressure test on eAch individuAl tube in A bucket of wAter, by blockong one end of the tube and adding air to the other end again in water.

When you say the cooler was dirty inside, was it on the water side, (shell side) which I would think it would be or the oil side, (inside the tubes). I can't imagine having twigs on the oil side as it should be the same as the pan oil.