Volvo EC460BLC Engine situation/options

[funwithfuel]

I'd have to cross match all components one by one. I can tell you that block, crank and rods are the same without reservations. I do know that pistons are different, head should be the same. Front gear case and flywheel housing are the same. Cam , valve train and injectors are different.
It looks like, to do it right, you're going to have to build 2 into 1 and make it a D12D

 

[Tony Wells]

What that would boil down to is still a matter of the ECU and changing backwards to a dumb cab though, correct? Or is there a way to integrate the newer parts of the control system into the older engine? If every update could be moved to the older engine, then it may be possible.

Head being the same is good, since the existing head is no good. Are the cams interchangeable in themselves then? It would seem the newer EGR system could be transplanted since it gets away from a mechanical rocker style.

 

[funwithfuel]

Yes, its all interchangeable to the best of my knowledge. The newer head had floating valve bridges, the earlier had guide posts w/ T-bridges. IIRC. My biggest concern is that pistons and liners are different. By how much, I cannot say. Like I said , this is gonna have to be scrutinized line by line. Since I'm no longer a dealer tech, I dont have access to updates and bulletins to clarify changes.

 

[Tony Wells]

OK, not being so familiar with the role the pistons and liners would play in this game, since the reman is fairly fresh, is that really a concern currently, or are you speaking of later-in-life issues?

 

[funwithfuel]

Pin to crown height and depth below deck. I'd hate to hear you did all this work and then bend all the valves the first time the EGR comes in

 

[Tony Wells]

Yeah, that would be a wet blanket for sure. So, that being the case, then the EGR system needs to stay with the block it was originally installed on. Which brings us full circle to the ECU I think.

 

[funwithfuel]

It may be as simple as redesigned ring packs, I'm just looking at worse case scenario. Pull the head and measure twice. If the combustion chamber area looks similar and the piston height is the same, rock on. I would definitely want to keep the aspects of the D vs the C .

 

[Tony Wells]

I wish I had possession of the reman engine. I'd buy the gaskets to remove the head and do some study and measurements. But at this point, I am trying to decide on buying it or not, hoping that it is something I can use as is, or convert. For me personally, many unknowns are making this difficult. And naturally, I'm in a hurry. I am short on equipment and need this 460 back on line.

But if this is a complete engine, and all connections are there for the ECU, what would stop me from dropping it in? If the EGR system is 2005 compliant, as the tag says, and it is not ECU controlled....what is left that won't work?

 

[Tony Wells]

On the D12C, just briefly, can you explain how the EGR system works? (Question to anyone) I'm trying to visualize how the valvetrain differs between the C and the D. Wish I had a C on hand to study. If the head is the same between the two, I can easily see the cam being different, and that leaves the rockers as the likely place where things got changed between the C and D. If that's the case, assuming the cam would change over also, can the rest of the valve train be moved to the C, thus operating like the D? Or did Volvo change things to prevent that?

Basically, I can't see a practical way to use the C as is in my D machine. So if there is a way to change the EGR system, which appears to be the main difference, sounds like I could use parts from my D on the reman C and get by. I know I am grasping a but, but I've had no luck so far. When I found that C I thought maybe it could solve my problems. Not working out as smoothly as I'd hoped.

 

[funwithfuel]

The exhaust rocker has a hook on the roller side that hands over the cam. There is a hydraulic piston between the hook and rocker. The hook is integral to the rocker on a fulcrum or pivot. The rocker shaft is fed via the EGR solenoid approximately 35-45 psi through a restriction. That is oil for lubrication purposes only. Now, when the ECU decides EGR is necessary, it energizes the solenoid that feeds the rocker shaft. Now you have full unregulated oil from main gallery feeding rocker shaft faster than it can purge. As a result the pistons in the exhaust rockets pump up causing the lash between the hook and cam to diminish. Now when the ramps for the exhaust come around, approximately 120* the hook impacts the cam profile and opens the valves putting exhaust back in on the intake stroke.

 

[John C.]

Tier 3 engines in this horsepower range started in 2006 which indicates either engine only has to comply with Tier 2 regulations for the US.
https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi?Dockey=P100OA05.pdf

I don't think the EPA is a concern for either engine.

Here is another little tidbit about EGR requirements for Tier 2:

• Tier 2 and later model naturally aspirated nonroad engines shall not discharge crankcase emissions into the atmosphere unless these emissions are permanently routed into the exhaust. This prohibition does not apply to engines using turbochargers, pumps, blowers, or superchargers.

 

[Tony Wells]

So essentially the ECU changes the cam profile to open the ex valves at some point during the intake stroke. The lift, based on the cam base circle cannot exceed the normal lift during the exhaust stroke or risk compressing the valve spring beyond normal and risk going solid. Possibly even to 100% of it's compressed length without risk to the spring and/or any other parts in the train subject to excessive stress. Then it becomes a matter of timing in relation to piston position. These are potentially interference engines, so the solenoid energize timing has to coincide with the stroke in such a way to avoid a collision. Hence a position sensor somewhere to keep the timing of the EGR solenoid correct. I have to think each cylinder is handles independently so this only happens on the intake stroke.
If the ECU is from an engine that uses that technique, and that style rocker and solenoid system were not present or functional then there would likely be a code thrown of some kind since all that wasn't happening. So if I try to stay with the existing ECU, I can't use that style EGR system. But what happens if I change the entire valve train, including the cam, to the newer style?

 

[Tony Wells]

John, that's what I was thinking. If either/both these engines are stickered 2005, that's what I need to comply with, regardless of whatever EGR system they use, since both styles will meet the 2005 standard.

 

[funwithfuel]

In the images I swiped off the net you might be able to better visualize what I was trying to describe. The cam profile remains the same. It's just where the rise comes in . For the most part the rocker follows the cam via the roller. The roller is inboard of the cam center line. The I-EGR is outboard. It is the big chrome paddle hanging over the cam at about 100* or so . When the piston or actuator gets pumped up, the hook comes down closer to the cam profile and the cam strikes it then the valve pop open. So you see, when energized you know have to exhaust valve opening events on the same cam with only one profile. I hope this clears it up

 

[Tony Wells]

I didn't mean physically change the cam profile, but functionally. Essentially then, the exhaust valve is held open, or opened again later by this "second" follower when the oil pressure is up due to the control solenoid. This give or increases any overlap of the intake/exhaust valve openings. Got it. Kind of visualized something like that, but that clears it up. Thanks for hunting down the pics.

Since that's what is on the older style engine, I can see that the ECU that manages the oil control solenoid would need to be moved from the same machine. Hence the complication. If that was not done, even though all the other I/O devices were present, there would be no EGR at all without it. The engine would probably run ok, but not in compliance. There would be nothing to drive the oil control solenoid to increase the pressure to activate that rocker assembly.

Of course, that begs the question of how EGR is handled on the newer style engine. I hate putting out all of these questions, but the dealer gives me the old "deer-in-the-headlights" look when I ask for explanations on things like this. I'm simply trying to see if there is a way to use the engine I have a line on, which happens to be the older style. I'm sure there are some people who would simply leave the control solenoid disconnected and not fret about EGR compliance, and I don't know how the ECU would react beyond throwing codes, but I'd bet it's been tried.

Edit to add: What triggers the ECU to activate the oil control solenoid? (old style)

 

[funwithfuel]

I didn't mean physically change the cam profile, but functionally. Essentially then, the exhaust valve is held open, or opened again later by this "second" follower when the oil pressure is up due to the control solenoid. This give or increases any overlap of the intake/exhaust valve openings. Got it. Kind of visualized something like that, but that clears it up. Thanks for hunting down the pics.

Since that's what is on the older style engine, I can see that the ECU that manages the oil control solenoid would need to be moved from the same machine. Hence the complication. If that was not done, even though all the other I/O devices were present, there would be no EGR at all without it. The engine would probably run ok, but not in compliance. There would be nothing to drive the oil control solenoid to increase the pressure to activate that rocker assembly.

Of course, that begs the question of how EGR is handled on the newer style engine. I hate putting out all of these questions, but the dealer gives me the old "deer-in-the-headlights" look when I ask for explanations on things like this. I'm simply trying to see if there is a way to use the engine I have a line on, which happens to be the older style. I'm sure there are some people who would simply leave the control solenoid disconnected and not fret about EGR compliance, and I don't know how the ECU would react beyond throwing codes, but I'd bet it's been tried.

I'm sure it has. Believe it or not, I don't think it throws a code, I believe you wind up with a hard start condition. If memory serves.
The other bigger factor, the injectors are different. The newer Bosch don't require trim codes, the older Delphi do. Plus, one head or the other has a larger injector harness plug opening

 

[John C.]

The EGR was not required by law in the time period. What I see as your issue with the ECU and the older engine, is if the ECU connects machine performance to the input of a malfunctioning EGR. It might have provision of putting the machine in a default operation mode or shutting you down completely. Sounds like a lot of complications just to get the machine running again.

 

[Tony Wells]

So pretty much I have to use the head from the existing (newer style) engine, provided they are interchangeable. That would seem to solve both the EGR and injector issues, right? But, I hate to buy a complete, running engine and then have to track down a head. The existing head is no good, per my engine shop. At a glance, I didn't see much seriously wrong with it. Cylinder #1 has had 3 of the 4 valves replaced, indicating there was something bad going on there, but unless I sent it to a head shop for inspection, I can't know for sure it's truly scrap. I suppose I could try to sell the head from the purchased engine and recover some of the cost. Seems like a lot of trouble to get where I'm going. So far though, I haven't had much success locating a replacement engine. It all started with what we all thought was excessive blowby from a worn out engine in need of a rebuild. Teardown revealed different.

John, that's the million dollar question....what happens if the ECU from the newer machine does detect a lack of EGR? If it's not required, I'm willing to forego it. But if, as funwithfuel says, other issues arise, then that's not the right answer. Or as you mentioned, I can't run in limp mode or deal with a total shutdown.

Maybe someone needs to take away my shovel. I seem to be digging myself in deeper and deeper. I wish I could just locate the proper engine.

 

[Tony Wells]

That's cyl#1 head shot. It does appear that something rattled around a bit in there. It doesn't look too good.

 

[Tony Wells]

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