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Volvo EC460BLC Engine situation/options

Tony Wells

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OK, on with the next circus act. Have a 2005 Volvo EC460BLC Engine Family 5VSXL 12 1CE3 Engine Model D12DEAE3. For what it's worth, the machine sn is EC460V80211

Basically, engine is worn out. Excessive blow-by forces oil out of every available opening. So a rebuild or replace is the normal course of action. Right now, the machine is sitting at a reputable diesel shop, with heavy equipment expertise. They are finding that this particular machine Volvo will not or cannot furnish a rebuild kit, but only offers a complete replacement engine at quite a price. Chasing aftermarket parts has not been fruitful, and doesn't sound cost effective. It has been speculated that this machine was built for a foreign market, and there are oddities about the engine that make it impractical to go through, piece by piece and source everything needed. Since I don't know any better, I'd think an in-chassis overhaul might be worth considering.

So, the question on the table is whether there is another engine that could be installed. I believe one option (I am told) that is a possibility is a Cummins M11. That's a straight 6 with a bit (quite a bit) more power than the original engine. I've no idea about the compatibility of any of the other parts of the drive system, or any of the controls. To me, it sounds like a large undertaking, but I hereby toss this situation out to the brain trust of HEF. What say ye?

Edit: Apparently the M11 was an option in 2002: https://www.proxibid.com/Heavy-Cons...-M11-ENGINE-HEAT-AC/item-information/37929860
 
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uffex

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Good day Tony
Sorry if I appear negative to your suggestion changing the engine to another make may not be so straight forward the D12 electronics are tied into that of the actual machine make's a nightmare to switch it out. I know Volvo excavators used differing cooling matrix on some models for the American market not aware of other changes, the camshafts were a issue at one stage but that engine is very common EC360B also makes use of that model, installing another D12 engine would need to be compatible with the engine ECU as reprogramming the unit is a task to be avoided if possible.The Cummins engine was used on earlier models formally Samsung as to the best of my knowledge never offered as an alternative in the "B" range. Strange you cannot get the parts do you know which parts you are looking for ?
Kind regards
Uffex
 
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Tony Wells

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Uffex, don't apologize for being realistic. That's why I am here asking questions. Knowing what little I do about it, I would be hesitant to recommend to the customer such an engine swap myself. But they wanted to explore the possibility/feasibility of such a swap. It may be that unbeknownst to me there is an M11 in the yard somewhere yearning to be used :). Kind of doubt that, but it's not impossible. Any time I've seen a swap that involves such a major change such as the base mfg, it's never as straightforward as hoped.
I don't know, or think that the owner has an issue with the D12 in itself, it's just that going from the engine shop feedback makes it sound problematic. If there is a kit available, then I'll pass that along to the engine guys and see what they can come up with. Getting a water pump shouldn't be a problem, and I can't imagine there would be a big problem reworking the heads. They're a reputable shop, 4 generation family owned, and personal friends of mine. I'll get back with them with the suggested kit number and see if that is a number they have already attempted to source. (Thank you funwithfuel)
I will also check with dieselrebuildkits and see if they can help.

Many thanks, and have a good day, both of you! (evening in the case of Uffex)

t
 

Tony Wells

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funwithfuel, all I have been able to come up with using that part number is a head gasket. Not much success on kit finding yet.
 

funwithfuel

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Woops, 3099100 is in fact head set. You will need that with kit 11715806. That kit includes rods, mains and cam bearings. 6 liner kits and a bunch of gaskets and seals. Does not include the separate head set. However the bottom end kit includes valve seals, ??? Go figure.
This should get you square, sorry for the confusion.
 

Tony Wells

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OK, found a couple of potential suppliers. One is an SLP (Swedish Lorry Parts) importer in Stratford, CT and the other is Fayetteville GA. Have inquiries out to them now. Certainly seems there are some oddities with the kits, but the engine shop guys will sort all that out. May have some success with this after all. Really didn't want to try and source a used D12. Rather go through the one I have. Shame the local Volvo dealer doesn't seem interested. Guess they want to get a rebuild job out of this. I think they are over-priced though, so shopping I will go!

Thanks, funwithfuel!
 

Tony Wells

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Well, after lining up all the hard to find bits and pieces for a rebuild, upon teardown my engine guys found cyl #1 liner to be epoxied/JB welded in, piston cooling nozzle broken in #2 with valves beating on the piston, #6 has broken rings, and there are missing/chewed up teeth on the front gear train. So...now I'm hunting either a rebuildable block, or a reman engine.

Fun fun!
 

Tony Wells

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Greetings, Uffex. Yes, I have discovered the many optional builds available in the D12 family. My engine guys are also on the hunt for a possible route, and they are more familiar than I with the subtle differences so I intend to mostly locate possible sources and connect my engine shop with them. It seems there are a few companies offering remans, used, and even bare blocks. Not sure I want to go that far, but may have to consider it. Then of course, I'll have to deal with the head. The turbo seems to have eaten a lot of grit, telling a tale of poor filter maintenance so will see if it is rebuild worthy. Radiator cleanout is on the menu since we re this far in.
Good day to you, Uffex,
Tony
 

Tony Wells

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OK....maybe. I hope someone here understands or has access to a secret decoder ring to tell me what the specific differences are between these two engines:

The one I sourced. Reman (factory I believe) pulled running and tested.
Volvo_Engine Tag_b (2).jpg

The original, which I went to look at today at the engine shop. Someone should be ashamed of themselves to have reassembled this engine and put it up for sale. If I can't part it out, I may encase it in concrete and give it a decent burial.
number_plate_2.jpg

The question(s) naturally are based on substituting the 4VSXL for the 5VSXL. What are the differences? Engine guys are leaning towards sensors mostly, which would be good, because I would be able to use the original ECM with the "new" engine. I don't know or have a way to find out what the specific differences are and if they are significant. I am told the reman did come out of a EC460BLC, so I have some hope.

Anyone want to wade into this one?
 

funwithfuel

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You may run into an issue with the emissions police. The D12C has simple rocker arm system , while the D12D has an integrated EGR system which uses a funky exhaust rocker arm to reintroduce exhaust gas to minimize NOx. Primitive, but effective when they didn't break. I think that you'll be fine with that engine, however you're going to have a miscommunication with ECU's They will communicate, they will work but may log errors for ECU mismatch. Are you using this engine as a parts donor to rebuild the original, or are you planning a drop in ready to rock sorta thing.
 
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funwithfuel

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the donor engine is from an early serial EC460B 10001-11514 That model as mentioned earlier, had a simple rocker arm system, it also had a very crude instrument panel which was a bunch of idiot lights and a pair of gauges. The information was conveyed through a little red display on the right side arm rest. Your serial machine has a thinking instrument display with LCD display integrated .
I don't think this is gonna work the way you want it to.
 
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Tony Wells

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The found engine is a good, running pull, so the hope is that it could be installed in the machine, any/all controls or sensors transferred to the reman engine and not have to mess with changing the ECU. With a complete engine just removed from the machine sitting on a stand nearby, it should be simple enough to see if there are places on the reman to stick the sensors or whatnot. I don't know what all the system monitors other than the basic stuff like water temp, oil pressure, etc. I wouldn't think too much or that if there wasn't a place (tapped hole, port in the manifold, etc) we couldn't manage a way to either "fool" the ECU with a dummy input or figure a way to mount whatever sensor that was not used on the reman originally. Now if there are solenoids or actuators driven by the engine management system that there are no provision for on the reman, it might get more complicated.

Getting the ECU from the donor is probably not easy, if even possible. I think we are wanting to do just the opposite of what you said. We want the reman engine to impersonate the dead one. Whatever EGR system was on the dead one may transfer to the reman, but how to deal with the extra pieces in the exhaust system I don't know. Might be possible to simply omit them. No idea what specifically that system consists of. Realistically, not overly concerned with NOX, unless there is a measurement system integrated into the control package that would be unhappy with high readings, or no readings at all.
 

funwithfuel

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No NOx sensors. Back then it was just applied as calculated, not as needed.
Difference between the 2
Injector, one is Delphi the other Bosch so harness is different as well.
Rocker arms, as mentioned. Camshaft too.
Piston / liner kits. I believe that the non EGR is of higher compression without modded combustion chamber to support EGR.
Oil control valve. D12C is just a passage while D12D has limiting solenoid, again, for EGR.
Externally, they are identical. There are no differences on the outside. All sensors and locations are consistent.
Ordering parts in the future will be a challenge. You'll have a red headed step child for sure. Not to mention the legality. As innocent as it sounds, you are legally tampering or defeating an emissions control device. This carries ridiculous fines and assessments. It's just not worth it.
You can legally replace a D12C w/ a D12D or any subsequent model but can never go back. It's stupid, I agree, but these are the times we live in. Remember that when you cast your ballots.
 

Tony Wells

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Kind of like automotive. Have to comply with whichever is newest, chassis or engine (in most states that care at all). I'm aware of the anti-tampering regs, but bottom line is that if it meets latest year emissions you can get by with it, in my experience. You're right, it would end up a mongrel, and may not be much fun down the line to work on.

With no core return required, is there a way to hybrid these two? That's what it's coming down to. Since even Volvo admits the original engine is a bit unique, the odds of finding another identical to it aren't looking too good.

Funny that on the build tags they both state that they comply with 2005 requirements even though they are slightly different series. Even though one was reman in '16.
 

Birken Vogt

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The engine family number that starts with a 4 is a model year code for 2004 despite that the sticker says 2005. Also you can see the difference in the emissions control systems part of the tag where it says the methods used to comply: (EM = Engine Modification) (ECM you know) (TC = turbocharger) (CAC = Charge Air Cooler) and finally EGR on the last one. So the reman one has a bit of a strange tag on it, sometimes manufacturers used credits or paid fines to put older emissions engines in newer machines beyond when they would normally be found.

But on the other hand if the reman engine truly meets 2005 spec, who is to say you can't use it? Most documents I have seen on the subject seem to say it has to meet the same or newer model year which the plain number on the tag seems to indicate. But the ECM is part of the system and has to go with the engine I am sure also for regulatory reasons.
 
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