union, non-union and self employed poll

[digger242j]

This thread has been under close observation from post #1, because we all know that the union/non-union question is one that has a high potential for conflict to arise. That's understandable, because it's an issue that people on each side can have strong feelings about, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Forum rules say: "Personal attacks of any kind on other members will not be tolerated. While disagreements will arise, they must be handled in a mature manner."

I can just see the discussion tap dancing along the edge of that rule, so I thought I'd remind everyone of it. It's one of those "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" things they teach in forum moderator school...

 

[Speedpup]

Union here and I would prefer not to be. Cannot remember which union, Iam only reminded when they get a cut of my wage's.

Union's protect lazy people.

Non-Union is the best way to get rid of deadwood when it come's to lay off's etc. Instead the company layed off some of the best people we have because of seniority and left the good old boy's, They dont really work like the younger guy's because they think they dont have too! And they are right, They dont have to because the company have there hand's tied because of the Union.

What a load of cobbler's

If you turn up, On time, Do your Job you have no reason to be in a Union. Simple as that.

Gun me down if you like but ive spent time with the union and without.

I have had a union shop since 1978 when I started in at 26 years old. Being union has never protected a lazy person who did not work to the best of their ability. I have had up to 85 employees at one time and up to 425 during one year. I just treat them as I would expect to be treated and 99.9% of the time it has worked fine on both sides of the fence.

Have I run into corruption in unions? Yes but I never played that game and when you cave you are part of the problem.

When working on a PW job it would cost me about 8-10 per hour more if I had to pay the bennies in the envelop and subject it to all the labor burden cost. The only way around that is to cheat or get an federally approved plan like Benneco. Then I would only be stuck with the problem of finding a workforce on short notice and qualified people.

There does need to be a reasonable balance on both sides for either to succeed long term. Please guys try not to get this locked.

 

[qball]

i am a local 150 operator, have been for 15 years. i have seen lazy hands ran off countless times. the contractor is paying top dollar and they expect top hands.
we are told that the b.s. stops when the bucket drops.
our apprentices are much sought after and most of our 3rd year guys can operate circles around "operators" i have seen in my travels.

 

[qball]

r.o.p and lash, come to chicago, there is always room for a good, proud hand.
btw, 100$ a quarter and 3% working dues. it's worth every penny in my humble opinion, and i haven't worked in 6 weeks.

 

[Steve Frazier]

From reading this thread, I think it's safe to say that different unions operate in different ways when it comes to a member's performance. I doubt Haul-Pak is making up anything that he's posted, it's probably how his union operates just as I'm sure that those of you who disagree with him are being truthful as well.

I probably posted my experiences here somewhere in the thread, but I'll restate them again. I was a Teamster for 20 years. Before I got on a regular seniority list I floated out of the Hall. I learned that the guys who hung out at the Hall on weekends washing the delegate's cars and cleaning their offices were the guys who got work, it wasn't "Seniority Rules" as I had been informed. I knew of one guy who had 2 union jobs while I sat home not working. I lived an hour and a half from the Hall and would work Saturdays so I didn't do any housework. I sat home most of the week waiting for the phone to ring.

I floated around different construction companies, a week here, a week or two there getting laid off as jobs finished up. Almost every time I'd have someone talk to me about "leaving some work for tomorrow". I never ran my ass off, I worked at a steady pace. My Dad had always drilled into my head growing up "If a job isn't worth doing right, it's not worth doing at all" and I worked with this in mind. On one job we were moving shot rock and a rock had fallen off a truck in the roadway we were using. Rather than run it over and risk cutting a tire, I got out and moved it. It wasn't a huge rock, about 12" in diameter. Well the Shop Steward saw me and I got reprimanded for not calling a laborer to move the rock. Seemed just a little ridiculous to me.

I caught a gig with a plumbing supply house making deliveries. The third day into this job I was sent out on Long Island in a Ford Econoline box truck with about ten stops. I had no clue of where I was going but I had one of those Hagstrom map magazines. I got lost to the tune of about 2 hours and did 8 of the 10 stops. When I got back to the warehouse I was met by the Shop Steward who looked in the truck and saw I only had 2 stops left. He wasn't happy, I didn't mention being lost to anyone. While I thought I had failed to empty the truck, the Shop Steward was unhappy I hadn't brought back half the load. "Always leave work for tomorrow". The warehouse manager came to me, gave me my check and told me how he'd love to keep me working, but he was being forced to lay me off. Apparently the Shop Steward saw to that.

I earned a permanent spot at a grocery chain making deliveries to stores and backhauls from other warehouses. The work environment there was nothing like I had ever experienced before. It was labor vs. management everywhere you turned, like a rivalry. We never seemed to be working together, like we were working for competing companies rather than the same one. When I first started I worked anyplace there was a day's work, perishables dock, grocery dock, or I'd take any run that came my way. I wasn't kissing anyone's ass, I just needed work and wasn't too proud to do any job that came my way. In every instance, at least half the guys were not carrying their weight, taking breaks wherever and whenever they pleased. I think it's a safe estimate to say they were producing about half of what they were capable of simply by the amount of time they stood around doing nothing.

Again, I don't kiss ass, but I do understand that a company needs to be profitable in order to remain in business, and I was counting on this company to provide me a job to continue buying groceries and pay my mortgage, so I worked to that end. There were guys who would do their best to "shake up the load" on the way to the store, either so it would take longer to unload or because they had a beef with the store manager. I realized that the only chance at revenue the company had was a customer ringing up a purchase at the cash register and made sure the products reached the store safely. I'd get chastised by my fellow Teamsters. "Screw the company" (well it was worded slightly differently) was the Teamster motto in my shop. I just didn't get that.

The only time I ever saw anyone get fired from the job was if they stole from the company, and believe me there was a lot of that going on. It was common knowledge that one driver was stealing boxes of meat and had his own side business running supplying restaurants with meat. After about 15 years of this he got caught and fired. Other than that, no one had to account for their performance level or safety record. We had guys who would have at fault accidents monthly and they couldn't be touched. I trained a guy who had no business being behind the wheel of a car let alone a tractor trailer, yet he was hired.

Nepotism was rampant at this job. I was passed in seniority by sons of the shop steward and other drivers. I complained about it, nothing was done. I complained to my delegate, nothing was done. Went to the union President, nothing was done. If anything, I worked even less after my complaints. All the while, I was paying monthly dues, "administration fees" and "political action" fees, which totaled about $125 a month. Our benefit package was of nearly no value to me, everything was negotiated by the Union, and arrangements were made with local doctors (1 1/2 hours away from me) to accept the union payment. This was back in the early 80s long before managed health care became common. I learned from the guys who took advantage of this policy that the doctors involved had two levels of care for patients, those who had regular insurance and those who had the teamster policy which was at a much lower standard.

After working for this company for 20 years, they began having financial problems. They went to the union and told them they were going to cease the distribution end of the business which meant permanent lay off for about 1500 men. There were private negotiation between the company and the union, apparently some kind of arrangement was made. We tried picketing the stores urging the customers to support us with no support at all from the union. We never saw a delegate, all organization of pickets were made by us the workers, we even made our own signs. No support from the Hall.

When we did get laid off, the union offered retraining. They had about 250 slots of re-education available for 1500 men. The best prospects went to the sons of the shop stewards and then sons of the other drivers and I was left with the opportunity to learn pest control. Not interested. They told us how bad things were at the hall, about 25% of the members were out of work and basically told us not to expect any jobs from the hall. Oh, but it's not OK to get a non-union job either. I walked away from that training session and never called the hall again, that was in 1997.

I can identify with much of what Haul-Pak has said here. The son of the president of my local became a delegate having never driven a truck. I read that my local president has gone to prison on corruption of union funds of some sort about 5 years ago, his son moved up to fill his position. My coworkers were not held accountable for the work they did or didn't do, and after 20 years of dues and other fees, I was abandoned by the union when I was laid off. It has left a very sour taste in my mouth for unions in general.

I couldn't walk away from the job I had, I had too many obligations to my family. I also worked in an environment I wasn't comfortable with, I think a lot of people do to feed and house their families. I've read where many of you are happy with your union jobs and that's great, just try to understand that apparently not all unions work in the same manner, and by the same token, those of us with bad experiences should not assume that all unions are bad.

Feel free to discuss the differences, but avoid personal call outs and accusations. thanks!

 

[qball]

steve, i am sorry that you had such a bad experience with the teamsters. truth be told it is kinda still like that for drivers. it's too bad i can't get you into chicago so i could show you how things are supposed to be

 

[RollOver Pete]

Thanks for the "reality check" Steve.
It's easy for someone like myself who doesnt get out much to assume that everything everywhere is just like it is in my back yard.
Obviously, thats not the case.
Ive seen the bosses lop-eared son get my job om many occasions.
I sat at home working only 1-2 days a week. After about 3 weeks of that, I went in to Granite Construction Companys office here in Indio and collected my final check.
I also told the super at the time that If thats the way you treat qualified operators,
ones like me who always give 110%, who always show up early,
stay late and try to make their employer shine, you can kiss my ass.
You'll never see me around here again.
Sure, I was pissed and I realized that membership does indeed have its privileges.
That was the one and only time I ever quit a job. I've never taken a dispatch for GCCO since then.
I've worked rental for them but never directly for them.
All of this went on back in 1990-91 after Granite had purchased Tarmac.

One thing that I don't have going for me is that I have no relatives or family in the construction business.
Which is just as well. I earn my way unlike many that I've worked with.

In writing this, I'm thinking to myself that maybe thats one of the reasons that I work 10-15 hrs a day, 6-7 days a week now.
It keeps me too busy to think about how hard and unfair life can be for both union and non-union workers who don't seem to fit into a company click.

One lesson that I've learned is to always look out for #1.
Regardless of what union rules are or have been, I've always got another job lined up... just in case.
A day off = a day to go look for work.
Every company I've worked for knows that. If that value a good hand, they'll find work for me.

Ok folks...
I've rambled on long enough.
I need to get to the shop and take the RattleStar and the tanker to Seal Beach to suck up some mud.

But before I get out of here, I'd like to apologize to Haul-Pak.
I don't ever mean to come across like an ass. It sometimes slips out without me catching it.
I do hope things look up for you at your job. And I'm sure they will.
Sometimes, things have a way of just working out.

Peace....

 

[milling_drum]

Wow, Our server leader has lived it like many have.

Thanks Steve. Those are words of encouragement to those who get the treatment from the unions the same way you have like myself. After its gone on so long, as a worker, you start to wonder whats wrong.

We need to focus on the future a little here. The incomming Government has promised plenty of Public Works contracts. That will mean all workers on such projects will have plenty of work all around. Operators will be in short supply when this comes to fruitation, the union halls should be empty.

How a hall is managed should be watched by the members. The quality of new membership directly affects us all. If we are to look closely at the comments in this thread we can see the folks offended on both ends get the raw end of the stick and it makes them mad. This needs to be rectified to a point because nothing will ever be as perfect as we would like.

I'd love to continue to debate issues but it seems like a few nerves get raw when certain aspects are brought out into the open. Thankfully Steve has shared his experiences, I have shared mine and been cut down over it. This by no means makes either side right. Its just how it is. But it can be improved upon.

 

[Steve Frazier]

Pete, you have no idea how stunned I was when I first learned you were a union man probably about 6 months after you joined here. I've followed your stories of the jobs you've been on and how you've solved problems yourself and essentially are a jack of all trades (I mean that with great respect) much as I am on my jobs. What you do would never be permitted at union jobs in this area. No one works outside their job description no matter how simple a job might be. A construction job will have Teamsters, Operating Engineers, Laborers, Oilers and Mechanics. Don't think about crossing the line into another trade's job description.

milling drum, I agree with you. If blue collar workers in this country are to remain competitive with the rest of the world (like it or not we're in a global economy) the work ethic among all workers, union or otherwise is going to have to improve.

One thing I've learned from these forums is things can be much different in another area than they are here where I am, it doesn't necessarily make one or the other right or wrong.

 

[milling_drum]

Steve, I'm just glad to read of your experiences being almost like mine have been. I do not disagree with unions at all. I do have a problem with the division of work on jobs thats enforced on union sites but theres usually reasons for that.

Again, Thank you for sharing and....this is a GREAT website!!!! You and your admin do an excellent job.

 

[dirtbroke]

Union Mechanic / Service-Shop Manager good pay & bennys. steady hours.

 

[Haul-Pak]

Well After Reading the post's and reviewing my own I have to Apologize to R.O.P and QBall for some of my comment's on this matter. They may Seem disrespectful but this isn't the way I originally wanted them to be. If I offended anybody then I Apologize.

I was just a little upset at some recent event's and may have used to much Venom in my original post.

Some of my Comment's may have given people the wrong Idea, I assure you guy's I wasnt calling anybody lazy, People pay there Due's like me and that's the way it is.

Like people have said, Every place is different and every Union is different, The particular Uni Organization here can let people down but I never stated this to be common ground.

Also thank's goes out to other member's for reviewing all side's and replying with Honest Post's.

I assure you I Have Integrity in the field and on this matter.

I thank my lucky star's for what I have, Let's hope people (Union or not) Can get back to work soon.

 

[qball]

PEACE! union or non, it doesn't matter when nobodys working.

 

[brian falcone]

union

im non union. i have all the benefits i need as does my family, i get paid very well and have been working steady for the past 10 years at the same company. oh and i live better too.

 

[qball]

super, i am glad.

 

[Sled Puller]

A union is only as good as its members.

Whoever said the union was a glorified temp position is absolutely right and I wouldn't work any other way!!!

Where else can you tell the boss to stick it, and go out to a different job next day with same pay same bennis?:usa

 

[Turbo21835]

A union is only as good as its members.

Whoever said the union was a glorified temp position is absolutely right and I wouldn't work any other way!!!

Where else can you tell the boss to stick it, and go out to a different job next day with same pay same bennis?:usa

I would like to see you tell a boss to stick it today. Tell me how the job placement goes tomorrow. I know our out of work list is over 400 people as we speak.

 

[RollOver Pete]

I would like to see you tell a boss to stick it today. Tell me how the job placement goes tomorrow. I know our out of work list is over 400 people as we speak.

Over 700 in Redlands and 500 in Indio

 

[milling_drum]

It would seem like the equipment operators unions are losing power in certain areas.

In upper western NY state, Rochester, theres a huge Construction company called Villager. They hire operators based on Prevailing wage rates, not union membership. An hour and half away in Buffalo, NY. That entire town is locked up on union only operators. BUT, when Villager came to Buffalo to work, no union engineer shows up to check for books or membership, however you cannot get a job with a Buffalo company and be without a Book.

Last summer the usual fan of corruption charges removed the powers that be from that branch and the international brotherhood took over, membership now is a simple test, 2 different classifications and 2 different tests. Easy to get a book now. It remains pretty stupid for one district to be one way about it and another to be completely different. They need to get their act together.

As for telling the boss to shove it, that usually catches up with ya and they will sit your ass down till you get it right on THEIR terms....I know its not like that everywhere but I've seen it done plenty.

 

[Dewoc19]

Local 803 Cement Masons