Truck heating up

[Truck Shop]

This whole thread is why I quit outside work years back.

 

[Truck Shop]

There is no prefect anything, ain't a damn thing that isn't a roll of the dice. That's life.

 

[DMiller]

This whole thread is why I quit outside work years back.

Another of many reasons I got out years ago.

 

[suladas]

Haven't been following for a bit so went back and read several pages. Here's my take on it. The shop with the truck is for sure very unprofessional among other things. If at one point he said he'd fix everything for $25K, hold him to that and unless you are supplying the parts he warrantees his labour and holds the parts supplier to warranty the parts. You could leave the truck with him and let him stew. If he tried to put a mechanics lean on it or sue you, he may not get paid a cent. You could abandon the truck. Without a signed work order he'd have a real problem and would basically have a chunk of scrap iron. Would he rather take a cut to get paid $25K or have a bucket of bolts? You could also countersue him. There's probably things like unfair/unethical work practices on your side. A good lawyer could tell you. The guy is totally taking advantage of you! It's not good he's in the same yard as you. The other question is would you rather forfit a truck worth less than $10K (as it sits)or pay $25K or more to have it fixed? There is still the option to look for a used engine too. If engine parts were purchased but not used may be returnable. All depends on the supplier, especially if the buyer/shop deals with them on a regular basis. It's not inconceivable that an engine was found to be not worth fixing after devling deeper into it or customer backed out after ordering parts. This is where a shop that deals with the supplier can give a good sob story on why they need to return the parts. Worst case the supplier says no. It doesn't cost anything to try. A good reputable shop would never have handled it this way. The 1st thing any good shop would be concerned about is how they are going to get paid on a big dollar job and be upfront with costs before proceeding too deep.
I think I got hosed on getting 2 bucket cylinders rebuilt but it was less than $2K not $20K+.

Unused parts still sealed in boxes normally can be returned-with a restocking charge.
Technically--there is no such thing as a mechanics lien. A shop can take someone a customer to court
over a dispute, but a shop cannot keep the owner/owners of vehicle/vehicles from their lively hood/
transportation/or use in a business.

Have sat in court to give testimony over such matters/been down that road before watching it play out.

I was curious and looked it up it's a garage keepers lien and they are allowed to keep the vehicle if repairs are not paid for, actually in order to place the lien they must keep possession of it or have a signed work order with cost of repairs. But if he tries to go that route without any documentation to go ahead with repairs it will be a waste of time.

He said spacer plate and gasket not returnable as they were opened to measure liner height. Either way, he has zero interest in trying to do anything beyond just collect what he thinks he's owed.

 

[suladas]

15k canadian is only 11,000 us. You're not going to purchase any other running driving dump truck for that amount. With a blown head gasket and a cracked frame rail, your truck would have been difficult to sell.

So for $11,000 US you're going to have a fixed head gasket and the frame rail repaired. Doesn't sound out of line to me.

Old used up dump trucks that are running and driving start at $30,000 US by me. ANything decent is now 40-50,000.

Even if you don't keep the truck, it had to be fixed. So pay to get it fixed, and if you want something different or are bent around the axle because he won't warranty a 30 year old truck, sell the fixed truck and buy something else.

I don't see the complications or the reasons to be upset. Either you can't afford the repair, or can't understand that trucks are going to break and need repaired, or you just don't like the way the mechanic does business.

I don't think the repair cost is out of line, and if you just don't like the way your neighbor mechanic does business, you better drag your stuff to the freightliner buddy. And then you'll have written itemized work orders, and a bill that is twice as high.

Look at it this way. Customer comes to you with a 10,000 project. You say I'm not sure its worth that amount of money to sculp your ditch bank and pull those trees, they say go ahead. 1/2 way through the project, they now want engineered drawings, DNR permits, copies of your insurance certificates blah blah blah. And then they get pissed because its costing too much (which you told them it would from the start) and now want you to stop. And only want to pay you $2,000 for your mobilization. And your at $8,000 of fuel and labor that you could have been billing to someone else, if you weren't dealing with this bad customer. And they think you can just pound sand. and go to court, and hire lawyers if you want any more money than that. They weren't sure they wanted this ditch cleaned out anyways.

You're the bad customer here.

Where did I say I wanted to find a running dump truck for $15k? I said I was contemplating spending over $100k or even a brand new one. Money is not the issue, I could write a check for a brand new one tomorrow, but it also doesn't mean i'm just going to throw money away at things that don't make sense. And if you must know, i'm buying another truck for $60k and if a good deal on something else pops up I will probably buy it too. Yes I know it would be a difficult sale, but a lot easier sale then trying to get another $13k or $15k for it when it's still not fixed properly and the $15k won't even get to pass inspection. I'm not saying his prices were out of line, i'm saying he was out of line proceeding with them before he had approval because I was on the fence if I wanted to fix it. No it didn't need to be fixed, I was going to dump it through an auction and let whoever buys it do as they please.

Actually about his costs, I sent the estimate to my buddy at freightliner and he said it was not far off from what they would charge and their labour rate is $190/hr. As he predicted they use a cheaper labour rate to appear cheaper but tack on a ton of hours to make up for it. If they would work on the old truck I would have taken it there because guess what? They'd provide an estimate before they tore it apart and if I did go ahead with the repairs and there was an issue with something they did or the parts they'd fix it.

How is that the same thing? Before he pulled the head he did not tell me a SINGLE number, that is a big reason why i'm so pissed about it, I had no idea on what a head gasket would even cost. Our conversation was "I am almost positive it's the head gasket and it's likely not worth fixing, very very small chance it's the compressor". How is that in anyway a go ahead to rack up a $15k bill? Even if I gave him the benefit of the doubt on pulling the head, where is the approval to spend $3k machining it and $1.5k on parts, and another $2.5k on frame repair? I already posted the text about the frame repair, I asked him to access what it needed for a cvip! And then he just went ahead. That's like a customer coming to me for a quote and me showing up and starting work and expecting to get paid for it. If a truck has a problem am I not entitled to having it accessed? Or is it either scrap the truck or fix whatever is wrong regardless of the cost or feasibility?

I really don't understand your viewpoint. I believe it's because you're assuming a few things that are incorrect.

 

[suladas]

Sometimes, the stuff in the ‘inoperable’ lineup at a Ritchie sale brings stupid money because there is always somebody who thinks they can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear especially nowadays. B model mechanical Cats have value. Maybe thats an option to sell it. Just sayin

I was leaning more towards Michener Allen as their commissions are a fair bit lower, but Ritchie's is an option and they do bring good money. The plan was to send it to auction if it wasn't worth fixing, it's just regardless of what it may fetch at an auction, there is no way it's increased in value $15k from the repairs, I highly highly doubt it's even worth $15k with the repairs done. Before the repairs, I was thinking i'd probably get about $10k for it.

 

[suladas]

I think your missing the point, it's not about the money, it's about dropping a truck off saying check it out and coming back and the head is off at the machine shop getting machined. Then the next day you come back and the rear end it off with the frame welded. What do you do in this situation? Trust is already lost with the mechanic so do you trust him further to repair the truck or do you try something else.

With the information provided I don't think we can blame the op for being hesitant. I'm really curious what you would have done in his stead when you show up and the head gone being machined.

This is exactly my view. Like what more could I do other then drag the truck out of the shop to get him to stop going ahead with stuff?

 

[suladas]

What a $$$$$hit show. This thread is a perfect example on why I will not run Caterpillar truck engines.

Have been down a head gasket road several times, and know of numerous other guys with the same experience. Spacer plate?? WTF is that? Don't need to worry about no stinking spacer plate on an N14 or 60 Series. Head gasket out? Yank the head(s), clean it up, new gasket, out the door. We have an N14 with 1,096,000 miles on it that needed a head gasket at 990k. Mechanic, who was a hell of a good mechanic but a little too particular pulled all three heads, and then said he wouldn't put them back on because there was some putting on the deck. I told him in no uncertain terms to polish it up best he could, put it together, and we would live with the consequences.

Over 100,000 miles later and it's still running. Gets it's guts pulled out for 4 months of the year running 100-105k out of the field.

So, like I said, Spacer Plate? What's that? If that Cat were mine I'd have prob told the mechanic to slap a new gasket in and shove it out the door. But that's just me.

Interesting, I didn't know the spacer plate was unique to Cat. I don't know enough about engines to make a $15k gamble, and I don't trust him enough to give me advice on that gamble especially when his opinion was once it backs out the door he's wiping his hands of it. So the gamble of if the head gasket will hold, and if he put everything back together properly is pretty risky to me. Now if I could trust he knew what he was doing and there was a good chance it would hold even 10,000 miles i'd go for it.

 

[Welder Dave]

You wouldn't get much at auction. I've seen running dump trucks sell for under $3,000 at RB with good engines and current safety. Truck was older with less desirable air suspension but even had some service records. Was part of a complete sell out. Another dump truck went for a little over $4000.
It's so much easier to say there was a miscomunication than admit they screwed up. Even if the shop had to do some disassembly to provide an estimate/quote, they should have told you upfront what cost that would be and after taking apart discuss with you how you want to proceed. So much to put back together as is or so much to rebuild. They should never have just went ahead with everything. I still think you hold them to $25K if that was the number they threw out.

 

[92U 3406]

That spacer plate and gasket should not have ever come out of the box IMO. He could have easily cleaned up the surface, put a sled gauge on it and checked it as it sat. If it had sunk liners, it would have been picked up right then and there and that'd be your smoking gun as to the root cause.

 

[suladas]

You wouldn't get much at auction. I've seen running dump trucks sell for under $3,000 at RB with good engines and current safety. Truck was older with less desirable air suspension but even had some service records. Was part of a complete sell out. Another dump truck went for a little over $4000.
It's so much easier to say there was a miscomunication than admit they screwed up. Even if the shop had to do some disassembly to provide an estimate/quote, they should have told you upfront what cost that would be and after taking apart discuss with you how you want to proceed. So much to put back together as is or so much to rebuild. They should never have just went ahead with everything. I still think you hold them to $25K if that was the number they threw out.

It's really a crapshoot of what it would get, but I know privately I could get $6k easy for the box and hoist, I just spent $3k on a new hoist last year. And $4k for the rest of the truck wouldn't be hard i'd imagine.

I'm sure I could hold him to that price but he wouldn't do anything he didn't figure on and the quote is so vague. There is no mention of fluids or filters so I bet he'd finish and say here's your truck just put fluids and filters in it. And it missed stuff like checking gauges that aren't a 100% must, but are common sense to me on a truck of this age if doing a rebuild. Also outright missed at least a few little things for cvip, again I know he wouldn't eat them. So just from what I know, it would add at least 2-3k to that price without any other things popping up. Yesterday his comment was he isn't budging a penny to try and fix this problem.

 

[suladas]

That spacer plate and gasket should not have ever come out of the box IMO. He could have easily cleaned up the surface, put a sled gauge on it and checked it as it sat. If it had sunk liners, it would have been picked up right then and there and that'd be your smoking gun as to the root cause.

Yea his response was it's the only way to check it properly, but it makes total sense to check it like that before spending $4500 on parts.

 

[Truck Shop]

Canadian law my be different-Down here a garage keepers lien does nothing more than keep the owner
from selling said vehicle without settling debt. If said vehicle is proven a part of lively hood and deemed
necessary to pay debt shop has to release it. Also said shop will not gain control of vehicle without a title,
shop would have to have correct title signed to show release of interest. Until it could be proven there is
no title a lost title cannot be filed for and any interested parties have signed off on a release of interest.
A vehicle cannot have two titles. So technically a garage keepers lien really isn't worth much.

When It comes to towing and impounding that is a whole other section of law, once a vehicle is determined
abandoned plates are pulled and DMV for that state has checked the vehicle for correct vin number and or
vehicle was not stolen then it can be auctioned. A towing company does not have to release a vehicle until
all towing services and storage are paid.

 

[Welder Dave]

It's really a crapshoot of what it would get, but I know privately I could get $6k easy for the box and hoist, I just spent $3k on a new hoist last year. And $4k for the rest of the truck wouldn't be hard i'd imagine.

I'm sure I could hold him to that price but he wouldn't do anything he didn't figure on and the quote is so vague. There is no mention of fluids or filters so I bet he'd finish and say here's your truck just put fluids and filters in it. And it missed stuff like checking gauges that aren't a 100% must, but are common sense to me on a truck of this age if doing a rebuild. Also outright missed at least a few little things for cvip, again I know he wouldn't eat them. So just from what I know, it would add at least 2-3k to that price without any other things popping up. Yesterday his comment was he isn't budging a penny to try and fix this problem.

I highly doubt you'd get 4K for a bare truck with a bad engine. I think 1.5K would be generous.
If you're not confident with their work, why did you take it to this shop in the 1st place? What if you told him you will pay a max. of say $28K to fix everything but you need some kind of warranty on the engine work even if it's just for labour. That might stop him from just slapping it together. If not it's no better than gambling on a used engine. It really is a $hit show at this point.

 

[DMiller]

TS is quite correct on Mechanic lien here, i had initiated several and received nothing until they attempted sale where title had that lien had to be paid to release. Quite a few ended up salvage yarded where the owners were given some paltry sum as junk I got nada.
Not job related I could hold until 180 days and receive a salvage title to sell for moneys owed, not able to Profit just what had in it per my attorney at the time, he always added storage fees. Only managed that on three.
I knew 95% of my clientele, took in odd machines only infrequently and is where ended up with liens.

 

[Old Doug]

sulades If your not worried about the money part of this i would take a loss get it out of his shop have it fixed or junk it or auction it ? Like i said before i dont know you and i dont know if anyone here does but its not a long trip to ether side of the fence to take a side. Life is to short for this kind of stuff.

 

[suladas]

sulades If your not worried about the money part of this i would take a loss get it out of his shop have it fixed or junk it or auction it ? Like i said before i dont know you and i dont know if anyone here does but its not a long trip to ether side of the fence to take a side. Life is to short for this kind of stuff.

It's not that i'm not worried about the money, it's just that i'm not that tight that it's keeping me up at night, if the truck sits for 6 months to resolve this it doesn't bother me one bit. To me the point is just as important as the money, for a lot of this repair I feel like what he did is basically stealing from me. He robbed me of the ability to decide if I wanted to do the repair, if I wanted a new head, or even a long block, etc or any other of the various others I could have went or simply gambled with a thinner spacer plate.

If he was willing to work with me and even said he would drop parts prices to his cost, eat the spacer plate he shouldn't have bought, and cut some labour then I would budge and say put the smaller spacer plate in and I will run it and pay the bill. But when he says he won't budge a dollar on an inflated price? Not going to happen. Honestly if I was going to do anything to get it resolved quick, i'd just say keep the truck and walk away from it, because it's not worth 15k if it's not running properly.

I do get your point sometimes it makes more sense to walk away from a few bucks then the hassle of fighting over it, but to me any resolution that results in him getting 100% of the bill and not accepting he did anything wrong is not something I can live with.

 

[Shimmy1]

but to me any resolution that results in him getting 100% of the bill and not accepting he did anything wrong is not something I can live with.

Then you may as well go in tomorrow morning and tell him you're done, keep the truck.

And he's going to tell you see you in court.

 

[Welder Dave]

He'd get nowhere in court without a signed work order and could lose in a countersuit. It's very expensive if a lawyer is required. He just went ahead and did things without the consent of the person paying the bill. That in itself isn't uncommon but usually not for such expensive work. Maybe he'd give a discount on the parts if he understood his options? Labour on engine should have some kind of warranty. You can always have other issues in relation to the safety done by someone else. The engine is already apart so it might be best to have him do that as long as there is some kind of warranty.

 

[Truck Shop]

There is one huge problem here that hasn't been addressed.
At this stage of this repair with each arguing back and forth--What kind of repair job does anyone
who has followed this thread think this guy will perform?