Eddiebackblade
Well-Known Member
:bash:bash:bash
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- Thread starter Eddiebackblade
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Eddiebackblade
Well-Known Member
Many thanks for your kind words ZTS.
I am extremely pleased with the Kubota and how everything has been set up, with the exception of the buckets that will end up being nothing better than a bodge up I could have done myself!!
I hear you with your JCB, and having family and friends working at the factory nearby I feel somewhat ashamed to have turned my back on them.
However I simply feel the 8 tonne Kubota is built much stronger (nearly 13 tonner) and has tremendous design and finish quality.
The residual values are holding very well on them endorsing their popularity also.
I am completely biased obviously, but worth a look if you are considering another unit.
The proportional controls were installed by JCC, and look/feel factory.
As for the LGP conversion, it works very well in practice and during an initial demonstration for a client I ended up spinning the machine on the spot to create some ground damage. This was however limited to a smearing of the surface with no cutting in, despite being so wet my boots were sinking in around 3".
I feel this was probably the most cost effective portion of the whole machine build, but the wider pads can add somewhat to the overall cost.
I know many are waiting for a few working pics and video, but it's still in hiding awaiting it's big demo day at the end of the month.
The flail mower basically must arrive on monday, so I can get that up an running and then it's just fitting the safety gear (fire extinguisher, first aid kit an spill kit) to be fully sorted.
I have 2 months work already booked, and that's without the demo day so I'm reasonably happy so far.
Have you got the integral grab ZTS?
I am extremely pleased with the Kubota and how everything has been set up, with the exception of the buckets that will end up being nothing better than a bodge up I could have done myself!!
I hear you with your JCB, and having family and friends working at the factory nearby I feel somewhat ashamed to have turned my back on them.
However I simply feel the 8 tonne Kubota is built much stronger (nearly 13 tonner) and has tremendous design and finish quality.
The residual values are holding very well on them endorsing their popularity also.
I am completely biased obviously
, but worth a look if you are considering another unit.The proportional controls were installed by JCC, and look/feel factory.
As for the LGP conversion, it works very well in practice and during an initial demonstration for a client I ended up spinning the machine on the spot to create some ground damage. This was however limited to a smearing of the surface with no cutting in, despite being so wet my boots were sinking in around 3".
I feel this was probably the most cost effective portion of the whole machine build, but the wider pads can add somewhat to the overall cost.
I know many are waiting for a few working pics and video, but it's still in hiding awaiting it's big demo day at the end of the month.
The flail mower basically must arrive on monday, so I can get that up an running and then it's just fitting the safety gear (fire extinguisher, first aid kit an spill kit) to be fully sorted.
I have 2 months work already booked, and that's without the demo day so I'm reasonably happy so far.
Have you got the integral grab ZTS?
AtlasRob
Senior Member
Excuses, excuses. excuses, just go buy some new batteries for that camera and get on with it.
Great to hear things are moving forward for you Eddie, we are waiting but are now accepting that we will have an early Christmas present when you do finally post them. :yup :thumbsup
Per Eriksson
Senior Member
What's wrong with the buckets?
Eddiebackblade
Well-Known Member
Basically the machine was supplied with 5 additional buckets included in the price, and I had the choice of manufacturer.
Having consulted with my chosen manufacturer, I paid the extra to have genuine CAT tips and adaptors welded to the buckets as I don't like bolted teeth and it's easy to add a plate to dig around services etc.
The bucket manufacturer purchased the correct adaptors to fit the Engcon hitch direct from Engcon so I was happy things would fit.
Upon first fiitting it became apparent that the angle of the adaptor relative to the toe plate was completely wrong and the buckets would not rotate enough to retain material in a loading situation.
The main reason for this is the manufacturer has simply produced a standard pattern CAT 307 bucket with a flat back profile to fit their own quick hitch system.
Onto this they have welded the Engcon adaptor to produce a nice factory looking bucket that fits snugly into the Engcon unit.
This would have been great if the angle of the standard bucket produced had suited the machine, but it clearly does not and the rear pin must be rotated 100mm or 4" upwards to correct the geometry.
This can be achieved by simply cutting the Engcon adaptor off and putting a wedge of plate to space it to the correct angle.
Easy as that, but the look and fit that it will achieve will look anything but factory!
The buckets will simply look adapted from something else, and the money I have spent on this is certainly not what I wanted to achieve.
To put the whole issue right will involve a little surgery to the back of the bucket to bring the flat portion around to the desired angle and then fit the Engcon adaptor back on in it's original close fitting positioin to retain the close fitting factory look.
The manufacturer is unwilling to do anything without ridiculous cost, but the supplying dealer has been good enough to cover the cheap'wedge' option.
I am stuck for time, and would have been prepared to put a little money in if the manufacturer had shown some goodwill and charged the mods at reasonable cost to get it all sorted.
They were asking the same amount of money for each modification as I can buy new buckets for!
So the outcome is buckets with a wedge of metal inserted to make them work!
The moral of the story is don't buy any buckets before you have your tiltrotator fitted, then get someone with the experience to do the job right for you and get the close fit they need.
Before someone states the obvious and says you should have bought Engcon buckets, I will say they are siimply too expensive to consider.
The only thing I want from all this hassle is the buckets to arrive back in time for the Demo, because if they don't then I'll have no option but legal action.
Having consulted with my chosen manufacturer, I paid the extra to have genuine CAT tips and adaptors welded to the buckets as I don't like bolted teeth and it's easy to add a plate to dig around services etc.
The bucket manufacturer purchased the correct adaptors to fit the Engcon hitch direct from Engcon so I was happy things would fit.
Upon first fiitting it became apparent that the angle of the adaptor relative to the toe plate was completely wrong and the buckets would not rotate enough to retain material in a loading situation.
The main reason for this is the manufacturer has simply produced a standard pattern CAT 307 bucket with a flat back profile to fit their own quick hitch system.
Onto this they have welded the Engcon adaptor to produce a nice factory looking bucket that fits snugly into the Engcon unit.
This would have been great if the angle of the standard bucket produced had suited the machine, but it clearly does not and the rear pin must be rotated 100mm or 4" upwards to correct the geometry.
This can be achieved by simply cutting the Engcon adaptor off and putting a wedge of plate to space it to the correct angle.
Easy as that, but the look and fit that it will achieve will look anything but factory!
The buckets will simply look adapted from something else, and the money I have spent on this is certainly not what I wanted to achieve.
To put the whole issue right will involve a little surgery to the back of the bucket to bring the flat portion around to the desired angle and then fit the Engcon adaptor back on in it's original close fitting positioin to retain the close fitting factory look.
The manufacturer is unwilling to do anything without ridiculous cost, but the supplying dealer has been good enough to cover the cheap'wedge' option.
I am stuck for time, and would have been prepared to put a little money in if the manufacturer had shown some goodwill and charged the mods at reasonable cost to get it all sorted.
They were asking the same amount of money for each modification as I can buy new buckets for!
So the outcome is buckets with a wedge of metal inserted to make them work!
The moral of the story is don't buy any buckets before you have your tiltrotator fitted, then get someone with the experience to do the job right for you and get the close fit they need.
Before someone states the obvious and says you should have bought Engcon buckets, I will say they are siimply too expensive to consider.
The only thing I want from all this hassle is the buckets to arrive back in time for the Demo, because if they don't then I'll have no option but legal action.
stock
Senior Member
Well now I think you are selling yourself short here Eddie,the problem is not yours to solve,you ordered buckets to fit a Kubota with an engcon wrist,the bucket manufacturer knew this and bought the correct adaptor plate,then attached them to the wrong bucket,he knew they were for a Kubota,and you wanted Cat teeth.
He has not supplied what was ordered and there for should not receive payment, would you pay for the modification to the excavator if they gave you a Doosan instead of the Kubota.
He has not supplied what was ordered and there for should not receive payment, would you pay for the modification to the excavator if they gave you a Doosan instead of the Kubota.
AtlasRob
Senior Member
Sorry Eddie, I am with Stock on this.
That stinks.
If they have supplied a C@t pattern bucket due to the fact you wanted C@t teeth to fit on a Kubota would the bucket geometry be correct without the Engcon?
I dont know, its a question.
I suspect the geometry would be wrong giving you the same problem you have now, in which case the goods are NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.
DONT get rolled on this, get advice and fight it.
I understand you need buckets PDQ and probably cant afford to jeperdise their return but have you contacted Daniel, surely he can beg, steal or borrow you a couple of genuine bkts from one of his clients for a few days of the demo.
That stinks.
If they have supplied a C@t pattern bucket due to the fact you wanted C@t teeth to fit on a Kubota would the bucket geometry be correct without the Engcon?
I dont know, its a question.
I suspect the geometry would be wrong giving you the same problem you have now, in which case the goods are NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.
DONT get rolled on this, get advice and fight it.
I understand you need buckets PDQ and probably cant afford to jeperdise their return but have you contacted Daniel, surely he can beg, steal or borrow you a couple of genuine bkts from one of his clients for a few days of the demo.
Eddiebackblade
Well-Known Member
It's a real old mess to be honest, and the main factor is the supplying dealer was paid for the whole package before delivery as obviously you would want all the money if someone was going to chop the machine up!!
Unfortunately the buckets were included in the price and hence got paid for in full before delivery.
If I was holding some money on them they would have gone straight back no messing about.
The dilema is the manufacturer is basically saying there is nothing wrong with them, but the supplying dealer wants to be right with me and will pay for the basic modification to put them right.
The main sticking point is that they see cutting the actual bucket to put the additional metal in so that it would be a close fit and look factory as a 'special modification' and want me to stump up the extra.
As I have said before I would be willing to throw a little cash at it right or wrong, to get the buckets as I would want them but I'm not paying over inflated prices to put right their mistake.
If they would hold their hands up and say we never give the geometry a thought and just welded the Engcon bracket to the easiest standard one we produced, which happened to be a CAT 307 flat topped bucket for their own dedicated quick hitch and offer to get them sorted quick and at cost it would be all sorted.
They are certainly a useless outfit as they could not see my point at all about having great big 'ears' on buckets.
I pointed out that buckets should be as close a fit as possible (especially on a tiltrotator) and the extra 4" wedge would be just fresh air, instead of useful extra bucket capacity.
They could not see my point at all:Banghead
If I reject them I'll see no money back and probably no buckets!!:Banghead:deadhorse
Unfortunately the buckets were included in the price and hence got paid for in full before delivery.
If I was holding some money on them they would have gone straight back no messing about.
The dilema is the manufacturer is basically saying there is nothing wrong with them, but the supplying dealer wants to be right with me and will pay for the basic modification to put them right.
The main sticking point is that they see cutting the actual bucket to put the additional metal in so that it would be a close fit and look factory as a 'special modification' and want me to stump up the extra.
As I have said before I would be willing to throw a little cash at it right or wrong, to get the buckets as I would want them but I'm not paying over inflated prices to put right their mistake.
If they would hold their hands up and say we never give the geometry a thought and just welded the Engcon bracket to the easiest standard one we produced, which happened to be a CAT 307 flat topped bucket for their own dedicated quick hitch and offer to get them sorted quick and at cost it would be all sorted.
They are certainly a useless outfit as they could not see my point at all about having great big 'ears' on buckets.
I pointed out that buckets should be as close a fit as possible (especially on a tiltrotator) and the extra 4" wedge would be just fresh air, instead of useful extra bucket capacity.
They could not see my point at all:Banghead
If I reject them I'll see no money back and probably no buckets!!
:Banghead:deadhorse
AtlasRob
Senior Member
I feel your frustration.
I bought a 24" bucket from a company in Birmingham I needed it in a hurry and they could supply. Atlas run on 60mm pins so off the shelf is not always available at short notice.
It worked and did the job but the geometry was as you are experiencing, WRONG!
Get the buckets back so you can at least work, then I would seriously suggest you get proffessional advice. The problem will be trying to explain / convince a legal eagle of the problem. To a non operator a bucket is a bucket is a bucket.
A side view of an original Kubota bkt sat flat on the deck with one of an unaltered C@t 307 bkt would be a very good starting point.
Have the bucket manufacturers the slightest idea of just how much high profile industry wide advertising this machine is going generate and the work it could generate for them as a company able to supply adapted buckets to fit tilty's at a fraction of the price of the originals. NOT!
Eddiebackblade
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely spot on with your last comment Rob, there is a definate gap in the market for a decent bucket manufacturer who can produce a viable alterative to Engcon's own products at sensible cost.
I doubt it will be this manufacturer, they are so wrapped up in getting their new quick hitch adopted by everyone that small fry like me don't count.
However as you rightly point out this machine was always intended to be high profile and I have already pointed out how many views this thread alone has received.
I am as you know a full time operator/groundworker and have been absolutely stretched to keep working whilst sorting everything out, however there is light at the end of the tunnel and I will have the time I need to give this matter the full attention it deserves.
I have given them fair warning I'll make it clear they managed to spoil what has so far turned out to be a great machine to anyone who will listen, and as my sister is a solicitor and my legal issues are sorted for free they might be in for some hassle of their own.
Just hope they arrive in time for the Demo now, and the mods don't look like a pigs ear!
I doubt it will be this manufacturer, they are so wrapped up in getting their new quick hitch adopted by everyone that small fry like me don't count.
However as you rightly point out this machine was always intended to be high profile and I have already pointed out how many views this thread alone has received.
I am as you know a full time operator/groundworker and have been absolutely stretched to keep working whilst sorting everything out, however there is light at the end of the tunnel and I will have the time I need to give this matter the full attention it deserves.
I have given them fair warning I'll make it clear they managed to spoil what has so far turned out to be a great machine to anyone who will listen, and as my sister is a solicitor and my legal issues are sorted for free they might be in for some hassle of their own.
Just hope they arrive in time for the Demo now, and the mods don't look like a pigs ear!
AtlasRob
Senior Member
Man, I read that wrong first time.
I read it as a joke on the theme of cut and shut cars and a bit near the nuckle even for Q, who we all know can be a bit ........... blunt
SORRY Qball, I reread it and see what you meant, I tend to agree with you. Although the manufacturer has not been named........yet..........they need to be aware of the power of communication around the world.
Eddiebackblade
Well-Known Member
It's been a hectic few days!
Arrived back into a very wet UK after being on holiday to find the proposed site of the demonstration too wet to access with the lowloader.
It took a frantic few hours driving around to find another suitable site but we found another that appeared better than the initial one so that was a result.
This however was the time I had allocated to fit the flail mower, but a local hydraulics guy was kind enough to work well into the evening to fit the necessary 'T' pieces and lengthen the hoses to get it fitted.
However all was not well and the mower was simply not getting enough flow, and the Kubota seemed unwilling to 'sense' this and provide more flow.
An early call next morning to John Craig has me pushing buttons and pulling levers to no avail, and John racking his brains for the solution.
I suggested he had a coffee as I had plenty of other things to get ready and call me back later.
Call me back he did but not what I expected, he asked my location and explained he was already well over the border and on the way down to me.
Nothing unusual you may think, but he is in Stirling Scotland around 5 hours drive away from me!
John arrived and quickly diagnosed the problem as a setting on the Engcon control unit and soon had the flail operating properly.
When the Kubota decided to provide all it had got, the flail really come alive and had us all running for cover!
I can only say a great big thanks to John Craig for driving 10 hours round trip to get me sorted and speaks volumes for his willingness to go the extra for customers.:thumbsup
The buckets finally arrived just in time, and I hate them!
I have added a couple of pictures that show the 'wedge' added to alter the angle and this will make things clearer in previous posts.
The demo was well attended despite being cancelled and then moved etc, and most of the comments were favourable.
The machine traversed the ground without hardly a mark, and the mower appeared to be a hit with all.
I should have the pics and some video back shortly.
Arrived back into a very wet UK after being on holiday to find the proposed site of the demonstration too wet to access with the lowloader.
It took a frantic few hours driving around to find another suitable site but we found another that appeared better than the initial one so that was a result.
This however was the time I had allocated to fit the flail mower, but a local hydraulics guy was kind enough to work well into the evening to fit the necessary 'T' pieces and lengthen the hoses to get it fitted.
However all was not well and the mower was simply not getting enough flow, and the Kubota seemed unwilling to 'sense' this and provide more flow.
An early call next morning to John Craig has me pushing buttons and pulling levers to no avail, and John racking his brains for the solution.
I suggested he had a coffee as I had plenty of other things to get ready and call me back later.
Call me back he did but not what I expected, he asked my location and explained he was already well over the border and on the way down to me.
Nothing unusual you may think, but he is in Stirling Scotland around 5 hours drive away from me!
John arrived and quickly diagnosed the problem as a setting on the Engcon control unit and soon had the flail operating properly.
When the Kubota decided to provide all it had got, the flail really come alive and had us all running for cover!
I can only say a great big thanks to John Craig for driving 10 hours round trip to get me sorted and speaks volumes for his willingness to go the extra for customers.:thumbsup
The buckets finally arrived just in time, and I hate them!
I have added a couple of pictures that show the 'wedge' added to alter the angle and this will make things clearer in previous posts.
The demo was well attended despite being cancelled and then moved etc, and most of the comments were favourable.
The machine traversed the ground without hardly a mark, and the mower appeared to be a hit with all.
I should have the pics and some video back shortly.
Attachments
watglen
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 1,324
- Location
- Dunnville, Ontario, Canada
- Occupation
- Farmer, drainage and excavating contractor, Farm d
Good job getting out there and marketing yourself. Way to go!!!
Hi Eddie
Glad the demo went well, was thinking it must have been soon!
But i think even your LGP machine might not be any good in some parts of the UK or ireland this week, need more of a submarine!
the buckets dont look tooooo bad (at least in the pictures) How are they for performace
is the geomitrey ok?
Glad the demo went well, was thinking it must have been soon!
But i think even your LGP machine might not be any good in some parts of the UK or ireland this week, need more of a submarine!
the buckets dont look tooooo bad (at least in the pictures) How are they for performace
is the geomitrey ok?
Canadian_digger
Senior Member
What if you grind the welds smooth on the bucket and paint it.
AtlasRob
Senior Member
That wont cure the bad taste, the feelings of being misled and basically shafted by a supposed specialist, to say nothing of the lost capacity. :Banghead
Real glad you got everything sorted for the demo Eddie, we did try to contact you to say we thought you had left a tap running when you skidaddled off on holiday
You cant fault service like that can you, 10hrs drive without question. :notworthy hope you bought him lunch
Eddiebackblade
Well-Known Member
Yes Canadian Digger I could just grind everyting smooth and paint them, but as soon as they come within sight of my genuine Engcon grading bucket the difference becomes glaringly obvious.
It would look better but still just wrong.
The old saying 'you can't polish' a turd comes to mind but I suppose you can 'roll them in glitter!'
If just one person learns from my lesson though, at least something good comes from it.
I have been decent enough not to broadcast the manufacturer, but if any of the UK guys on here want to find out then please pm me.
After the demo which obviously the machine has been saved for I took the opportunity to close the door open her up and get stuck in!
Yes tiltrotators are harder to use in anger than you first think! Demo was just a little messing and so was practice leading up, but I can now put it to real work and I've plenty of learning to do.
Would I change anything yet? I'm seriously thinking of taking the top quick hitch off and having the unit direct mounted, It will reduce weight and build height giving more back to the Kubota and I don't think the Tiltrotator is ever going to come off that often.
Lastly of everything I've added if you wan't some interest in your machine bolt a great big winch to it, you have to fight them off with a stick looking at it!
It would look better but still just wrong.
The old saying 'you can't polish' a turd comes to mind but I suppose you can 'roll them in glitter!'
If just one person learns from my lesson though, at least something good comes from it.
I have been decent enough not to broadcast the manufacturer, but if any of the UK guys on here want to find out then please pm me.
After the demo which obviously the machine has been saved for I took the opportunity to close the door open her up and get stuck in!
Yes tiltrotators are harder to use in anger than you first think! Demo was just a little messing and so was practice leading up, but I can now put it to real work and I've plenty of learning to do.
Would I change anything yet? I'm seriously thinking of taking the top quick hitch off and having the unit direct mounted, It will reduce weight and build height giving more back to the Kubota and I don't think the Tiltrotator is ever going to come off that often.
Lastly of everything I've added if you wan't some interest in your machine bolt a great big winch to it, you have to fight them off with a stick looking at it!
Demo_Andy
Well-Known Member
Impressive machine that Eddie, shame about the bucket problems you've been having but I'm sure you'll get it sorted some how.
I'm intrigued by how your selector grab will be set up with the controls. Have you got hold of the grab yet?
Its just come to mind that the grab would use the rotate off the engcon as apposed to a standard selector having its own built-in rotate. I just wonder if you have rotate and open and close on each graduation lever how do then control tilt, via buttons or pedal?
I drive a Cat and use selectors alot and thats set up on the graduation levers on each joystick, just not sure how I'd control tilt if I had the option. I probably wouldn't because I'm in demo, not much need for tilt really.
Andy
I'm intrigued by how your selector grab will be set up with the controls. Have you got hold of the grab yet?
Its just come to mind that the grab would use the rotate off the engcon as apposed to a standard selector having its own built-in rotate. I just wonder if you have rotate and open and close on each graduation lever how do then control tilt, via buttons or pedal?
I drive a Cat and use selectors alot and thats set up on the graduation levers on each joystick, just not sure how I'd control tilt if I had the option. I probably wouldn't because I'm in demo, not much need for tilt really.
Andy