Right to Repair 2018

[Birken Vogt]

I am going to keep beating this drum about once a year here and hopefully we can keep people's interest.

In my field (generators) the manufacturers made the jump from full mechanical to full electronic diesel engines basically overnight.

On an electronic unit I can't even replace an injector because of trim codes, and of course they have many other systems to fail.

I found this video. I have seen others very much like it but this one seems up to date and hopefully the tide can be turned on this dealer lockdown stuff.

Of course Deere is probably the worst offender and everybody knows that. If they are watching this forum, let it be known that under no circumstances will I recommend a new Deere product to my customers, both because of the software lockdown issues and their refusal to support products from even the recent past. (Engine design also has something to do with it.)

 

[Welder Dave]

Everything required should be available for a reasonable cost so owners or mechanics can repair the equipment. It's a monopoly and should be illegal. It's like car manufacturers saying you can only have a dealer service your vehicle. There needs to be a large group formed to fight this kind of BS or it's going to get worse.

 

[Vetech63]

Customer support doesn't mean much anymore.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Here is what I am thinking. To program an ECM it should take a laptop computer with some cheap software and a USB plug. You could easily change injector trim codes if it were allowed this way. It would be trivial for manufacturers to implement this. They could easily log whoever had made changes so they could point blame where it belongs if something fails in warranty. Outside warranty it is not their baby any more.

 

[56wrench]

This is something I have been mad about for years. It doesn't matter what color of iron. They all do it. If you live a couple hours from the dealership, a lot of dollars are spent on travel time just for a sensor or harness repair. Not hard stuff to do, just maybe hard to get at. In 20 yrs this new iron theoretically should be cheap because nobody will want to pay exorbitant prices for something that will take a small fortune to keep running. Plus, rodents chewing electrical harnesses ---- you get the picture! Combines are probably the worst piece of farm equipment for rodent damage to electrical stuff. Ya gotta love the electronic age lol

 

[63 caveman]

Look on the bright side, as they continue to use thinner wire and cheesier connectors

 

[Tones]

Years ago new machinery came with a fairly comprehensive selection of tools, some crawler tractors even had a template to measure all the components of the track gear. So in this day and age a module and hardwear for doing daignosing be included as a tool and come with the equipment when purchased.

 

[92U 3406]

I feel your pain. I do a lot of work on gensets and we are having a hell of a time with John Deere engines. They love freezing the PCV and pumping all the oil out all over the place. Plus we have to pretty much call the dealer for any technical troubleshooting. Our little Kubotas and Isuzus will do 20k hours no problem though. Stick a new water pump and alternator on as needed and service them regularly and they just go.

 

[John C.]

I've been through this issue more times than I care but I think the future is only looking bleaker and more costly. All the big manufactures are adding telematics to the machines so they can watch any machine in their territory. The issue could be resolved at that level if they would tell you what is wrong and which parts you will need to repair something. This is the manufacturers way of this as supporting their dealerships as they intend to take the profit out of the new machine sales. Dealers are going to be marginalized by the manufacturers providing an Amazon type solution. Pop into their web site and order your machine. The dealer will send out a person to inspect the trade and will enter the info into the manufacturers software who will then provide a trade value. The quote will be generated and a take it or leave it offer will be made. Accepted offers will drop into the production line at the factory and be shipped through a dealer lot where final inspection is done. Machine to be delivered with the paper work stating the manufacturer is entitled to all data created on that machine in perpetuity. It will also state in the contract that only authorized personnel will be able to affect repairs.

Deere is on the top of the ag market. Unfortunately unless someone else is able to provide an alternative to the Deere line or induce government control such as requiring a system like OBD for cars, then Deere is going to continue down this path. So far the issue hasn't hit the construction, forestry or mining industries to any great extent yet.

The issue is not government intrusion anymore. Big brother is the multinational corporation dictating how you will be doing business.

 

[td25c]

Be interesting to see how it all shakes out in the future .

If becomes a big enough problem for customers and the market has a profit potential other companies will jump on & sell an aftermarket kit to remedy the issue like they have in the past .


Similar to what Jon Kinzenbaw was doing with his repower kits back in the day .

https://www.kinze.com/blog/the-john-deere-5020-meets-jon-kinzenbaw

On a 2018 side note ........... Those old Detroit Diesels keep looking better all the time .

 

[Vetech63]

Some of you guys get together and start a company that removes all The bs computer crap and make those new machines run without them.

 

[Junkyard]

Some of you guys get together and start a company that removes all The bs computer crap and make those new machines run without them.

I'm in, I'd love to give the big green machine fits. We've got a couple of Deere powered Watson rigs and they're a ROYAL PITA to deal with. Pi$$ poor service, no inventory etc. Not worth a plug nickel

 

[td25c]

You guys do know why Deere tractors are painted green........


So they can hide in the grass when a Minneapolis - Moline shows up .

 

[Truck Shop]

Freightliner with the Detroit DT 12 automatic---your locked out from repair. They got you by the nuts.

Truck Shop

 

[check]

CUI BONO?
Who benefits?
More monopolization.
More cost.
We have less control, they have more control.
THEY decide how long a machine should last.
All manufacturers connected at the hip.
No real competition.
When the loan is paid up and the banksters have collected their exorbitant interest on money issued out of thin air, it's time for the machine to self destruct.
The environmental regulations have helped the banksters.

 

[Delmer]

The environmental regulations have helped the banksters.

Big corporations are usually HAPPY to be more regulated, it keeps the small competitors at a disadvantage to break into the market or stay competitive.

In some regards the environmental regs force companies to "lock" their software so users can't bypass the emissions. Mostly they're just happy to have the excuse. JD may be signing their corporate living will/bankruptcy plan/death warrant by locking out the consumers and independent shops. The big farms who can afford the dealer service and lease equipment don't care now, but when the trade in drops because JD is no more valuable (FIXABLE) than Hongwongdong people's tractor company, then the lease numbers won't work anymore. It seems the big three auto makers had quite a run of producing more and more complicated "crap with gadgets" for the new car buyer, meanwhile the imports were making stuff that had better resale value, and were able to lease them for less because a three year old Camry had such a higher resale value than the big three's vehicles. The vehicles are more complicated than ever, but from the little I see of new vehicles, the reliability gap behind the Asians has closed dramatically post bankruptcy (and even before bankruptcy, just too late to matter).

The pirated software is out there apparently, or somebody who's motivated can make their own. The other disrupter is autonomous equipment, with no driver the economy of scale is lessened, so equipment that fits 3-6 to a container could replace some ag, construction, and logging equipment (RAID ish redundant array of inexpensive equipment). Hongdong et al would compete very well with Cat or Deere in that market segment.

 

[Crummy]

When they outlaw working on equipment only outlaws will work on equipment. Instead of a trunk full of Mason jars of hooch running the back roads it's now a service truck and an Xplore tablet with offshore permanent or 10 year dealer access.

 

[Wastepro]

a lot of dollars are spent on travel time just for a sensor or harness repair.

Your right on 56wrench.

The issue is not government intrusion anymore. Big brother is the multinational corporation dictating how you will be doing business.

Everybody in business these days are multinationals. Out of all our accounts, only 3 or 4 are small business.

Big corporations are usually HAPPY to be more regulated, it keeps the small competitors at a disadvantage to break into the market or stay competitive.

So true Delmer. The big dogs get seat at the table when regulations are being written.

 

[check]

The issue is not government intrusion anymore. Big brother is the multinational corporation dictating how you will be doing business.

It seems as though the government, big multinationals and the media are a single entity.

Big corporations are usually HAPPY to be more regulated, it keeps the small competitors at a disadvantage to break into the market or stay competitive.

Makes you wonder if the big corporations are writing the regulations.

but when the trade in drops because JD is no more valuable (FIXABLE) than Hongwongdong people's tractor company, then the lease numbers won't work anymore.

I thought WonHongLo was manufacturing the tractors for John Deere now.

 

[Crummy]

I've got a friend that works overseas and he said that (in the past at least) to sell in foreign markets, as there are no 'authorized' dealerships within 12,000 miles of Xaingping or Uzbekitown, manufacturers gave up the diagnostic software with generic permanent or long term licenses. Not much to prevent them from selling it back to the US market other than they'd(manufacturers) get it so it shows up as a virus/malware somehow, but now they(offshore) get around that by installing software & giving dealer licenses remotely (TeamViewer).