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Right to Repair 2018

funwithfuel

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
5,600
Location
Will county Illinois
Occupation
Mechanic
Delmer hit the nail on the head. EPA!!!!. They don't want you to be in the software tweakin and modding. Nevermind that most dealer software wont allow you to go in and tweak. Those parameters are usually locked out.
Of course the mfr doesn't want to "give" out proprietary information. That would lessen your dependence on the dealer networks.
 

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
Reworked a dead 1968 Ford Galaxie 500 last summer & got her back on the road .

Didn't have to go to the Ford Dealership for anything .

All aftermarket .... Demand is good enough my buddys from Taiwan will build & send me the part I need and it works !

Them Taiwan fellers could provide a part for a JD tractor pretty quick if there is a market for it .........:)
 
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thepumpguysc

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
7,535
Location
Sunny South Carolina
Occupation
Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
I saw this coming WAY BACK..
It started w/ tamper proof screws on mechanical injection pumps..
It use to be that the only thing "required" was a small wire w/ a lead seal attached that got crushed to "lock" the screw in place.. or a PLASTIC cover..
THEN came the "tamperproof screws".. The 5 sided torx screws, THEN the 6 sided torx screw w/ the tit in the middle, now its a 5 sided torx w/ a tit in the middle.. NOW theres 3 & 5 sided BOLTS & STEEL covers.. that take a grinder & 15 minutes to remove..
& all this goes on 1970's technology..
I don't bother replacing the STEEL covers.. I just put red lacquer on the screw & nut..
I figure, if you wanna turn a screw.. you'll find a way regardless..
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,323
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
If it really is EPA, I would like somebody to cite the code and section that prohibits replacing your own injectors so I can read it for myself.
 

excavator

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
1,448
Location
Pacific North West
I just read an article on Facebook from the Washington Ag Network News Source, Feb. 5, 2018 stating that the Association of Equipment Manufacturers and the Equipment Dealers Association are working towards the right to repair. The commitment aims to provide a comprehensive set of service information tools for tractors and combines put into service by model year 2021. Manuals, product guides and service demonstrations, on board diagnostics and diagnostic tools. The two organizations have launched a website, R2Solutions.org for info.
 

Birken Vogt

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Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,323
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
That web address does not work, and I found another reference to it in Google as well, so you did not mistype, either they have not got their web site going or JD lawyers took them down immediately ;)
 

hvy 1ton

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
1,946
Location
Lawrence, KS
The best form of protest is to quit buying the new computer run equipment and start rebuilding the older equipment.
I agree keeping old machines running is the best way to motivate manufactures to open source diagnostics etc. Like bumpsteer said, Combines have come along way in the last 10 years or so. Older machines are not at the same level of productivity. Moving from 7088's to 7120's was a big jump and that was only 6 years ago.
 

Tones

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Mar 15, 2009
Messages
3,083
Location
Ubique
Occupation
Ex land clearing contractor, part-time retired
My brother in law runs an old school harvester with a 40ft Draper front. Every year he get Case out to do a preharvest inspection. A number of years ago he was thinking of trading it. The service man told him not to as all the new machines are nowhere as reliable and just plain junk. Every year he gets his crops in with no break downs so he's a happy camper.
 

Birken Vogt

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Messages
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Grass Valley, Ca
Problem there is the older equipment isn't as productive. A 9500 Deere combine ain't going to handle a 40' grain table.....

Ed

I agree keeping old machines running is the best way to motivate manufactures to open source diagnostics etc. Like bumpsteer said, Combines have come along way in the last 10 years or so. Older machines are not at the same level of productivity. Moving from 7088's to 7120's was a big jump and that was only 6 years ago.

Yes, how productive is it when it breaks down? Not just the time lost on a breakdown but the uncertainty if it breaks at a critical time? Seems like it might be safer to hire an extra guy to run another old, slow (reliable) combine in some cases rather than some new hot rod.
 

Vetech63

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
6,440
Location
Oklahoma
Yes, how productive is it when it breaks down? Not just the time lost on a breakdown but the uncertainty if it breaks at a critical time? Seems like it might be safer to hire an extra guy to run another old, slow (reliable) combine in some cases rather than some new hot rod.
Reminds me of the turtle and the hare......slow and steady wins the race.
 

Vetech63

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
6,440
Location
Oklahoma
Some dealers are not reliable in response times. CAT told a customer of mine that it would be a week before they could get a field truck out on their D6T that had broken down right in the middle of a levy. Could farmers stand to have that happen? I ended up having to drop everything and repaired it in 1 day so it could be moved. Not only is it the technology, but it's also the dealers themselves.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,575
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Fought with this with EEC in autos and light trucks from the 1980's, moved into medium/heavy duty equipment in the 90's and then into such as ALTEC or TEREX booms, all CCC now no rods levers or hard connections just solenoids and wires. Hydraulics used to be a joy to work on now they are a mess of the electronics marvels plus the technology changes so fast two years and the software is totally different, switching methodology completely different, safety circuits fail and do not identify then it becomes a Easter Egg hunt. Or in such instances a wire gets a nicked spot or a rodent chew, corrosion changes the resistance and that circuit sees a issue but cannot identify so just faults and states a generic code. Can be so stressful just to dig around on the fault trees that do not direct to anything set in stone.
 

excavator

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
1,448
Location
Pacific North West
I understand the frustration expressed here, I know, I work on it to. But what is behind all the fancy new stuff? Some of it is government regulations but isn't a big part operators? I used to do work for a company with Deere tractors and pan scrapers. They had several 70 series. No one complained about having to pull SCV levers all day but when the new 9000 series came with electric switches and computers ect. no one wanted to operate the 70's anymore. I see this kind of thing frequently whether tractors or excavators or wheel loaders. And whether we like it or not, new cars/trucks or equipment are still more reliable than the older ones. I drive a pickup with just short of 300,000 miles on it and have had to do virtually nothing to it. In 1970 a car with 100,000 miles on it was pretty much shot and you had to do a tune up every 10,000 or so miles. And they didn't ride or perform as good. It's sad but a stupid little Subaru will now blow the doors off a '70's vintage car with a 400+ HP engine. As far as the right to repair, from what I have read the government passed a law dealing with cell phone repair and the auto/equipment companies have figured out a way to make it work for them. And when you see what a good number of people do to their brand new pickups with the chipped computers ect. pushing the horsepower far beyond what it was designed for I can almost understand part of the reason behind this. Isn't this part of the problem? If the general public has access to the diagnostic equipment can they leave things stock? There's always someone who has to mess with things which in turn causes other problems. What if equipment under warranty or say newer than 3-5 yrs old has to be repaired by the dealer and after that they have to release the technology to the general public. Or if the owner can show proof that the dealer has not been able to repair the machine in a reasonable time? Lots of words here and don't know if they help or not but they're just a few of my thoughts.
 

Birken Vogt

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Grass Valley, Ca
I'll bet that if you left the software wide open, with only the caveat from the manufacturers that they will not warranty any damage nor support modded trucks, the small number of people who mess with it would be a drop in the ocean compared to the ones who leave it alone. The total emissions would change little because the modders tend to junk their equipment so fast anyway. It is just the government yay-hoos trying to prevent every, single case of modding and not letting anybody slip through the cracks.
 

Truck Shop

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Dec 7, 2015
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16,982
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WWW.
Some photos of dry land wheat where I live and that's all there is dry land wheat. The talk about combines in this thread are interesting. And photos don't even show the real
steep ground around here. There's an area north of town called Sky Rockets.

Truck Shop

800px-Combine_harvester_pulled_by_33_horses_Walla_Walla_ca__1902_b.jpg e9d01c55f5a7ec2a83bf61872385f69b--country-scenes-agriculture.jpg multiple-case-combines-harvesting-wheat-on-the-hills-of-the-palouse-eyng1w.jpg
 

Tones

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Ubique
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Ex land clearing contractor, part-time retired
I read a while ago about some blokes got a 383EFI Chev crate engine and put it on a dyno. They then measured all the out put including fuel burn and emissions. Thy then removed all the EFI gear and converted to a Carborated engine then tuned to to the same emissions and fuel burn. Loe and behold the horsepower and torque was exactly the same. Since reading this article I have often wondered it changing a common rail diesel back to old school that you could achieve the same results.
I understand that modern engines are only part of the reliably problems of todays equipment with computer controled everything.

And to think all this computerized junk started from the Global Warming/Climate Change LIES perpetrated by lying Al and others.
 

hvy 1ton

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Jul 24, 2006
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1,946
Location
Lawrence, KS
Someday i'm gonna make a road trip out to the skyrockets. There are actually a lot of hilco machines around the Hiawatha, KS area. The hills are windblown loess and they are steep, just not very tall. Older combines can run big headers in dryland wheat, but the bu/hr these newer machines can do in irrigated wheat and barely is unmatched.

Going from 4 big machines to 8 older ones would be killer for the custom harvesters. Twice as many machines to move. Twice as many flaky "operators." In the 5 years i was a wheaty we had more machines multi-day deadlined from mechanical issues than computer/mechanical issues. The 8120 having 3 rotor gearbox failures in green barley straw the first year didn't help. All for the want of some loctite on the one bolt that held rotor drive.
 

Truck Shop

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Dec 7, 2015
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16,982
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WWW.
Someday i'm gonna make a road trip out to the skyrockets. There are actually a lot of hilco machines around the Hiawatha, KS area. The hills are windblown loess and they are steep, just not very tall. Older combines can run big headers in dryland wheat, but the bu/hr these newer machines can do in irrigated wheat and barely is unmatched.

Going from 4 big machines to 8 older ones would be killer for the custom harvesters. Twice as many machines to move. Twice as many flaky "operators." In the 5 years i was a wheaty we had more machines multi-day deadlined from mechanical issues than computer/mechanical issues. The 8120 having 3 rotor gearbox failures in green barley straw the first year didn't help. All for the want of some loctite on the one bolt that held rotor drive.

There are allot of Deere S690 and 9870, 9660 bines around here. Very few farmers are running old equipment.

Truck Shop
 
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