older backhoe late 60 or 70 engine problem

[tasmanian hoe]

Okay guess it's the second time I need to write this out today. Earlier it was an old Yamaha XS650 and the steps re just about the same for this Case.

Fist thing I would do is remove the valve cover may be a pain to get at but I really don't think anything at this point is going to be a five minute job that will result in any success. Once valve cover is off try wiggling the rocker arms to see if they both have some clearance on one cylinder this would indicate the valves are both closed and engine is on the compression stroke for that cylinder. Make a note of which cylinder it is and temporally set valve cover back on to keep dirt an such out of engine.

Now you might need someone with a welder, brazing torch or a tap and die set. Take one of the spark plugs and without damaging the threaded part that goes in the head break the ceramic insulator out of it so you end up with the threads for the head and the hex part the wrench goes on. Now what is needed is to figure out how to get a pipe bushing with 1/8 female pipe threads securely connected to the part of the plug body the ceramic used to come out. This needs to be a strong and leak proof connection. I don't know what or who you have to deal with but you will have to figure it out at your end.

If you manage to get that far next you need a good lever operated grease gun with a flexible hose on the end. Take off the end of the hose that would be used to connect to the grease fitting. Fill the cylinder that you noted the valves were both closed on with motor oil.

Next screw that homemade adapter on the end of the grease gun hose and then screw it in to the plug hole in the head. Next if this is a used grease gun remove the cartridge that hold the grease and fill the body of the gun with motor oil. As long as you can hold the grease gun up so the oil doesn't spill no need to put the end on the with the spring and plunger that pushes the grease down the tube.

Now pump the grease gun to force the oil into the cylinder. The oil pressure should easily push down on the piston to break it free.

This assumes the valves are closed and no major leaks past the piston. Simple math will tell you if say this engine has a 4 inch bore you have approx 12.56 square inches of surface area on that piston top and if you can only get 1,000 psi pressure on the grease gun you will be putting 12,560 pounds of pressure on that piston and if it is a good grease gun it should be able to build up to 10,000 psi for a pressure on the piston of 125,600 pounds of force that's over 60 tons!

If you do go this route and get it to turn the next part will be the messy part. You will need to crank that engine over to push out all the oil and other stuff you poured in the cylinders. And if you do it by hitting the starter be prepared for it to fly everywhere unless you have someway to contain it as it come out.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Okay guess it's the second time I need to write this out today. Earlier it was an old Yamaha XS650 and the steps re just about the same for this Case.

Fist thing I would do is remove the valve cover may be a pain to get at but I really don't think anything at this point is going to be a five minute job that will result in any success. Once valve cover is off try wiggling the rocker arms to see if they both have some clearance on one cylinder this would indicate the valves are both closed and engine is on the compression stroke for that cylinder. Make a note of which cylinder it is and temporally set valve cover back on to keep dirt an such out of engine.

Now you might need someone with a welder, brazing torch or a tap and die set. Take one of the spark plugs and without damaging the threaded part that goes in the head break the ceramic insulator out of it so you end up with the threads for the head and the hex part the wrench goes on. Now what is needed is to figure out how to get a pipe bushing with 1/8 female pipe threads securely connected to the part of the plug body the ceramic used to come out. This needs to be a strong and leak proof connection. I don't know what or who you have to deal with but you will have to figure it out at your end.

If you manage to get that far next you need a good lever operated grease gun with a flexible hose on the end. Take off the end of the hose that would be used to connect to the grease fitting. Fill the cylinder that you noted the valves were both closed on with motor oil.

Next screw that homemade adapter on the end of the grease gun hose and then screw it in to the plug hole in the head. Next if this is a used grease gun remove the cartridge that hold the grease and fill the body of the gun with motor oil. As long as you can hold the grease gun up so the oil doesn't spill no need to put the end on the with the spring and plunger that pushes the grease down the tube.

Now pump the grease gun to force the oil into the cylinder. The oil pressure should easily push down on the piston to break it free.

This assumes the valves are closed and no major leaks past the piston. Simple math will tell you if say this engine has a 4 inch bore you have approx 12.56 square inches of surface area on that piston top and if you can only get 1,000 psi pressure on the grease gun you will be putting 12,560 pounds of pressure on that piston and if it is a good grease gun it should be able to build up to 10,000 psi for a pressure on the piston of 125,600 pounds of force that's over 60 tons!

If you do go this route and get it to turn the next part will be the messy part. You will need to crank that engine over to push out all the oil and other stuff you poured in the cylinders. And if you do it by hitting the starter be prepared for it to fly everywhere unless you have someway to contain it as it come out.

Hi.. I think this is to complex for me i think i will try the easier stuff first it sure sounds like you know what you are talking about boy oh boy maybe i will do this but not right now..great advice.. thanks

 

[tasmanian hoe]

If I remember the CASE 580 correctly the hydraulic pump bolts onto the front of the crankshaft along with the pulley for the fan belt. You might be able to turn that drive shaft with a pipe wrench, don't over do it. Just try to make it turn a little each direction until the rust breaks free. If prying on the flywheel teeth hasn't moved it I don't know if you will have much success turning the other end.
If you can use the suck bucket to clear the cylinders you might be able to look in the plug holes with some type of borescope camera. My son has a cheap one that uses his phones display. It works OK. Look for corrosion and rust in the cylinders.

FYI like the suck bucket idea. I'll be building one real soon.
I also like using hydraulic pressure to break the cylinder free. Great tips.

Hi.. i have an old shop vac that i can use thanks

 

[tasmanian hoe]

I think I'd try more of the ATF and acetone in the cylinders and then drain and replace the oil before trying to crank it over - just some cheap oil that I would drain again soon after getting it running if that ever happens. Sorry to say it but I'm also in with those who have their doubts about it just shrugging off being seized up. If it doesn't spring back to life, I'd drag it into a barn or build some kind of cover for it if you are going to try and repair the engine. I've seen pieces of equipment sit for a long time and start right up but the engine hadn't seized. Maybe the can on the exhaust blew off and was replaced later on? I use a 5 gallon bucket on the exhaust and secure a tarp over it if the machine lives outside. It's a PIA to cover and uncover every time you want to use it but it avoids the big problems like this.

It doesn't take a year or more to have water get in your exhaust and ruin your engine, it can happen overnight. If water of any quantity gets into one or more cylinders and you try to - or even worse succeed at starting the motor - it's going to be trouble. Make sure you have the spark plugs out when you are trying to crank it or pull it if the cylinders are full of your rust buster potion.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

I think I'd try more of the ATF and acetone in the cylinders and then drain and replace the oil before trying to crank it over - just some cheap oil that I would drain again soon after getting it running if that ever happens. Sorry to say it but I'm also in with those who have their doubts about it just shrugging off being seized up. If it doesn't spring back to life, I'd drag it into a barn or build some kind of cover for it if you are going to try and repair the engine. I've seen pieces of equipment sit for a long time and start right up but the engine hadn't seized. Maybe the can on the exhaust blew off and was replaced later on? I use a 5 gallon bucket on the exhaust and secure a tarp over it if the machine lives outside. It's a PIA to cover and uncover every time you want to use it but it avoids the big problems like this.

It doesn't take a year or more to have water get in your exhaust and ruin your engine, it can happen overnight. If water of any quantity gets into one or more cylinders and you try to - or even worse succeed at starting the motor - it's going to be trouble. Make sure you have the spark plugs out when you are trying to crank it or pull it if the cylinders are full of your rust buster potion.

Hi.. the exhaust has a fixed flap on it.. i will make sure i remove spark plug and there alot of potion in there to...thanks

 

[tasmanian hoe]

There's a few things that aren't adding up in my opinion. If the stuff that drained out of the oil pan didn't look like water, does that mean it didn't look like oil either? Get some on your hand, then run some drops of water over your hand, you'll know real quick if it's water or oil based. Same thing with the cylinders, dip a dried stick in there (like a piece of straw or old ragweed stalk) then see what level the liquid is and what level the piston is. Then dip that stick in water if you can't tell if it's water based or oil based gunk. The middle two pistons should be the same height, and the front and back should be the same height. All of the acetone should drain out of the cylinders overnight.

Did the engine turn at all for the mechanic? how far and how did he turn it? Does the belt turn with the alternator and water pump if you turn the fan blade and belt by hand?

Hi no the engine didnt turn over at all i was told the solenoid was no good i bought one still didnt turn over.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Hi..when i pull out the oil dip stick theres no sign of water on it.. is that a good sign..

 

[Grady]

Is there any sign of anything on it? If kshansen's suggestion sounds too complicated, you could simplify it by just going to the hardware store or home depot and buying some threaded adapters that go from whatever size the spark plug thread is [like 14mm or 7/8 - 18, take your old one with you to the store] to whatever size your grease gun threads are. [take it, too] If you tell the guy at the store what you need on each end, they can figure out which ones you need. Then you just need to pump some oil through your grease gun. It isn't hard or complicated, it's basic and might just work. I'd give it a try if it was me.
To determine which plug hole to pump the oil in, you need to figure out which cylinder has it's valves closed. To do it without pulling the valve cover, you could get some different adapters that will connect the same spark plug adapter to a tire type air valve like they use to blow out water lines, etc. Again, just ask the guy, that's what he's there for. That will allow you to use air pressure to determine which cylinder has it's valves closed so you will be able to build up pressure in it. If one of the intake or exhaust valves are open, the air will escape - either through the muffler or carb but if it's valves are closed, it should hold air pressure - at least temporarily - and that's the one to put the oil to.
You also might be able to adapt one of those portable hydraulic hand pumps in place of a grease gun.
I'd also pull that drain plug out and leave a drain pan under it to catch whatever drains through. You can put some fresh oil in if and when it breaks loose.

 

[Delmer]

yes, it's a good sign if there was no water. So it doesn't turn one bit. Have you tried the screwdriver on the ring gear both directions?

I forgot all about the hydraulic pump, check that along with the fan, alternator and water pump. You can just remove the belt if that's easier. And either loosen the hydraulic pump to see that it turns, or turn the shaft to see if it has enough play in the drive coupling that you can see the pump move but not the engine pulley.

A couple different ways to go about Kshansens method. Use either the middle pair or the outer pair. The one on the compression stroke doesn't matter, choose the pair closer to the top, remove the pushrods of the pair you use. An airless paint sprayer, porta power, or tractor hydraulic outlet will also work, pressures vary.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Is there any sign of anything on it? If kshansen's suggestion sounds too complicated, you could simplify it by just going to the hardware store or home depot and buying some threaded adapters that go from whatever size the spark plug thread is [like 14mm or 7/8 - 18, take your old one with you to the store] to whatever size your grease gun threads are. [take it, too] If you tell the guy at the store what you need on each end, they can figure out which ones you need. Then you just need to pump some oil through your grease gun. It isn't hard or complicated, it's basic and might just work. I'd give it a try if it was me.
To determine which plug hole to pump the oil in, you need to figure out which cylinder has it's valves closed. To do it without pulling the valve cover, you could get some different adapters that will connect the same spark plug adapter to a tire type air valve like they use to blow out water lines, etc. Again, just ask the guy, that's what he's there for. That will allow you to use air pressure to determine which cylinder has it's valves closed so you will be able to build up pressure in it. If one of the intake or exhaust valves are open, the air will escape - either through the muffler or carb but if it's valves are closed, it should hold air pressure - at least temporarily - and that's the one to put the oil to.
You also might be able to adapt one of those portable hydraulic hand pumps in place of a grease gun.
I'd also pull that drain plug out and leave a drain pan under it to catch whatever drains through. You can put some fresh oil in if and when it breaks loose.[/QUOTE

Hi.. I will try this ive been trying all advice basically hard to absorb all this new information.. question through the grease gun is it regular motor i use..thanks

 

[tasmanian hoe]

yes, it's a good sign if there was no water. So it doesn't turn one bit. Have you tried the screwdriver on the ring gear both directions?

I forgot all about the hydraulic pump, check that along with the fan, alternator and water pump. You can just remove the belt if that's easier. And either loosen the hydraulic pump to see that it turns, or turn the shaft to see if it has enough play in the drive coupling that you can see the pump move but not the engine pulley.

A couple different ways to go about Kshansens method. Use either the middle pair or the outer pair. The one on the compression stroke doesn't matter, choose the pair closer to the top, remove the pushrods of the pair you use. An airless paint sprayer, porta power, or tractor hydraulic outlet will also work, pressures vary.

Thanks.. i will try all this ..

 

[Delmer]

motor oil would work, diesel might work.

 

[kshansen]

I realize my method sounds complicated but actually all you need to do is find out which cylinder has the valves closed, the blow air in method is a good easy one if you have access to air pressure of some kind, then use something that can pump oil in under pressure.

I did forget to mention the "suck bucket" but the message was getting a bit long already!

Just don't make the mistake I did when I came up with this idea years ago for a stuck Mack Diesel. Only thing handy I had to produce the needed pressure was a air powered grease pump. If you think oil filled cylinder will make a mess how about filling a cylinder with #2 grease. Long story short that one did run but did use a little oil after freeing it up.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Hi..once i figure out which one is stuck what do i do next??thanks

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Hi everyone...i was just going to apply air pressure to the cylinders but i decided to pull it in neutral i managed to pull it about 5 inches or so and said what the heck try the crow bar and guess what the fly wheel turned maybe 1 inch where as before i couldnt budge it at all , what should i be doing now..thanks

 

[Grady]

You are in a little over your head here but if you try to understand the concept of how an internal combustion engine works and what has happened to yours that makes it refuse to work, you would more easily grasp the concept of how to fix it. That said, we are proceeding under the understanding that the piston rings are seized to the cylinder walls - which they likely are but none of us know the history of the machine. Is this a machine you've had for years or did you get it in this condition? Was it running fine when it was parked? If so, and we are on the right track, it doesn't really matter which cylinder is seized or if all the cylinders are seized. They are all connected by the crank so pushing on any one will cause them all to move if that one moves. The only one you will be able to move with pressure like has been described above is the one(s) with the valves closed because if a valve is open even a little it won't hold pressure to push down on the piston and hopefully free up the stuck rings - wherever they are. These may be new concepts to you but try not to be overwhelmed because they are simple concepts. There are probably slow motion video simulations of how an engine works if a visual aid would help.

 

[Grady]

You replied while I was writing so I missed your last post. That's a good sign that it moved a little. I'd try prying it back the other way now. Make sure there is some atf or diesel or some kind of lube in all the cylinders and pull the drain plug so you don't pump that stuff through the motor. Then pry it back the other way again. You should gain a little each time you repeat.

 

[kshansen]

You replied while I was writing so I missed your last post. That's a good sign that it moved a little. I'd try prying it back the other way now. Make sure there is some atf or diesel or some kind of lube in all the cylinders and pull the drain plug so you don't pump that stuff through the motor. Then pry it back the other way again. You should gain a little each time you repeat.

Yep sort of like the instructions on the bottle of shampoo"lather rinse and repeat"

In this case "Turn till it stops, top off the acetone/ATF, turn the other way till it stops" repeat till it don't stop!

Actually the first thing I would do is if it is as far as it will go in one direction use some paint to mark it on flywheel through the starter hole then turn it the other way and again mark the flywheel through the starter hole. This will help you know if you are making progress.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

You are in a little over your head here but if you try to understand the concept of how an internal combustion engine works and what has happened to yours that makes it refuse to work, you would more easily grasp the concept of how to fix it. That said, we are proceeding under the understanding that the piston rings are seized to the cylinder walls - which they likely are but none of us know the history of the machine. Is this a machine you've had for years or did you get it in this condition? Was it running fine when it was parked? If so, and we are on the right track, it doesn't really matter which cylinder is seized or if all the cylinders are seized. They are all connected by the crank so pushing on any one will cause them all to move if that one moves. The only one you will be able to move with pressure like has been described above is the one(s) with the valves closed because if a valve is open even a little it won't hold pressure to push down on the piston and hopefully free up the stuck rings - wherever they are. These may be new concepts to you but try not to be overwhelmed because they are simple concepts. There are probably slow motion video simulations of how an engine works if a visual aid would help.

Hi..I have had the machine for 10 years now everything was fine.when i parked still running great didnt need to use it so i parked it..this year i needed to use the machine this is what i encountered when i tried to start it. thanks

 

[tasmanian hoe]

You replied while I was writing so I missed your last post. That's a good sign that it moved a little. I'd try prying it back the other way now. Make sure there is some atf or diesel or some kind of lube in all the cylinders and pull the drain plug so you don't pump that stuff through the motor. Then pry it back the other way again. You should gain a little each time you repeat.

Hi.. ive been doing that for awhile now but still very hard to move.. i have a side bar on the machine protecting the engine and the pry bar only allows me to do very little becausel it hits this side bar.