older backhoe late 60 or 70 engine problem

[Grady]

I think I'd try more of the ATF and acetone in the cylinders and then drain and replace the oil before trying to crank it over - just some cheap oil that I would drain again soon after getting it running if that ever happens. Sorry to say it but I'm also in with those who have their doubts about it just shrugging off being seized up. If it doesn't spring back to life, I'd drag it into a barn or build some kind of cover for it if you are going to try and repair the engine. I've seen pieces of equipment sit for a long time and start right up but the engine hadn't seized. Maybe the can on the exhaust blew off and was replaced later on? I use a 5 gallon bucket on the exhaust and secure a tarp over it if the machine lives outside. It's a PIA to cover and uncover every time you want to use it but it avoids the big problems like this.

It doesn't take a year or more to have water get in your exhaust and ruin your engine, it can happen overnight. If water of any quantity gets into one or more cylinders and you try to - or even worse succeed at starting the motor - it's going to be trouble. Make sure you have the spark plugs out when you are trying to crank it or pull it if the cylinders are full of your rust buster potion.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

As for the "water in pan check" oil, engine oil or fuel oil are both lighter than water so the fist thing that will come out when the plug is loosened with be any water that may be in there. Now seeing it has been sitting for a year I would expect a little water from condensation as Ontario is not exactly a desert like climate and the freeze thaw of winter will cause some to get in to things. Also I'd be looking close and what comes out to see if it looks like antifreeze.

Wish I/we could be more encouraging about this engine but the chances of having a good running engine after it is stuck from rust after sitting for a year is rather low.

I might be tempted in using some kind of suction device to suck the stuff you poured in the cylinders out to see if there was in fact water in any of the cylinders.

If you have an old five gallon bucket with a top and a shop vac of any kind do a search on this site for "suck bucket" there is a lot of reading about it but it would be an excellent tool for getting the liquid out of those cylinders. Very simple tool to make and very handy to have.

Hi..thanks for the response and advice i appreciate it and to all who have been giving me there personal advice or should i say expertise.thanks

 

[tasmanian hoe]

As for the "water in pan check" oil, engine oil or fuel oil are both lighter than water so the fist thing that will come out when the plug is loosened with be any water that may be in there. Now seeing it has been sitting for a year I would expect a little water from condensation as Ontario is not exactly a desert like climate and the freeze thaw of winter will cause some to get in to things. Also I'd be looking close and what comes out to see if it looks like antifreeze.

Wish I/we could be more encouraging about this engine but the chances of having a good running engine after it is stuck from rust after sitting for a year is rather low.

I might be tempted in using some kind of suction device to suck the stuff you poured in the cylinders out to see if there was in fact water in any of the cylinders.

If you have an old five gallon bucket with a top and a shop vac of any kind do a search on this site for "suck bucket" there is a lot of reading about it but it would be an excellent tool for getting the liquid out of those cylinders. Very simple tool to make and very handy to have.

Hi Thanks for the advice i will do that within the next couple of days my firewood logs just arrived and yet another job. lol thanks again

 

[Theweldor]

Did you happen to pay close attention to the ends of the spark plugs when you took them out. A telltale sign of rust on the tip of the plug would tend to head you the cylinder or cylinders that may be stuck.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Did you happen to pay close attention to the ends of the spark plugs when you took them out. A telltale sign of rust on the tip of the plug would tend to head you the cylinder or cylinders that may be stuck.

hi.. i didnt pay attention at all but, when i took them out i dont think i saw any rust on anyone of them..i think that is something i would of seen hmm. i guess its to late to see now what do you think..thanks

 

[grandpa]

Maybe you could jack up a back wheel and you could use that to rock the engine. At least that would tell you if everything from the back to the engine is free. Clutch could be froze. Those old tractors had rubber boots over the shifters and crack over time allowing water to get into those compartments and freeze things up. At least you'd be narrowing down the possibilities.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Maybe you could jack up a back wheel and you could use that to rock the engine. At least that would tell you if everything from the back to the engine is free. Clutch could be froze. Those old tractors had rubber boots over the shifters and crack over time allowing water to get into those compartments and freeze things up. At least you'd be narrowing down the possibilities.

Hi Grandpa..thanks for the advice raining really hard here right now all things come to a hault...we need the rain we have forest fires all around us 1 hour away from me..thanks again

 

[kshansen]

Hi Grandpa..thanks for the advice raining really hard here right now all things come to a hault...we need the rain we have forest fires all around us 1 hour away from me..thanks again

With all the news about the fires in the western US I had not heard about those in Ontario! So I can only hope you keep getting the needed rain!

 

[tasmanian hoe]

With all the news about the fires in the western US I had not heard about those in Ontario! So I can only hope you keep getting the needed rain!

yes rain is needed here we had a down pour for a few hours..the fires has grown to over 11,000 hectares.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Well i had no luck turning the flywheel i wanted to take the oil plug out today to see if water came out first but i got side tracked also put the starter back on hoping maybe it would spin the flywheel and of course i couldnt remember how i took the wires off so i have to figure it out..i will keep all who answered posted..thanks again for the great advice

 

[Delmer]

If you can't budge the flywheel with a screwdriver, how is the starter going to turn it?

It won't.

 

[Grady]

That's what I was thinking, too. No sense putting it back together yet when it still needs to come apart more.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

That's what I was thinking, too. No sense putting it back together yet when it still needs to come apart more.

yes you are both right but i just wanted to see you never know. when i had the mechanic here it turned very little thats before i joined this forum his answer was its seized. also i took the drain plug out ..what came out didnt look like water..the question is would it be the diesel fuel ive been pouring in for a month every 3 days ..since last week i switced to atf and acetone also, when i pour the mix in each cylinder 3 cylinders takes the most and the 4th takes the least mix does this mean anything.. thanks

 

[kshansen]

Most likely reason one cylinder takes more than another one would be one of two things. First is the one that takes the least is near the top of the cylinder. Second reason the one that takes the most may be leaking past the rings a little faster.

I guess putting starter back on will only cost you your time so if you have time to give it a try why not.

If you could post a picture of the starter it might be possible to explain how to hook up the wires. Make a note of how many wires there are and how big they are like are they as big as your thumb or the size of a 16 penny nail? A picture showing the wires migh also help even if starter is off.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Most likely reason one cylinder takes more than another one would be one of two things. First is the one that takes the least is near the top of the cylinder. Second reason the one that takes the most may be leaking past the rings a little faster.

I guess putting starter back on will only cost you your time so if you have time to give it a try why not.

If you could post a picture of the starter it might be possible to explain how to hook up the wires. Make a note of how many wires there are and how big they are like are they as big as your thumb or the size of a 16 penny nail? A picture showing the wires migh also help even if starter is off.

Hi.. thanks for the replay i figured out the wires took awhile but i got..itook starter out again takes 5 minutes to remove starter...is there anything else i can try to free up the engine or should i just keep adding atf and acetone?? Thanks

 

[Theweldor]

Could also be the cylinder that takes the least is full of water also. Did you check to see if water was in any of the cylinders before adding any penetrant.

 

[Delmer]

There's a few things that aren't adding up in my opinion. If the stuff that drained out of the oil pan didn't look like water, does that mean it didn't look like oil either? Get some on your hand, then run some drops of water over your hand, you'll know real quick if it's water or oil based. Same thing with the cylinders, dip a dried stick in there (like a piece of straw or old ragweed stalk) then see what level the liquid is and what level the piston is. Then dip that stick in water if you can't tell if it's water based or oil based gunk. The middle two pistons should be the same height, and the front and back should be the same height. All of the acetone should drain out of the cylinders overnight.

Did the engine turn at all for the mechanic? how far and how did he turn it? Does the belt turn with the alternator and water pump if you turn the fan blade and belt by hand?

 

[kshansen]

Okay guess it's the second time I need to write this out today. Earlier it was an old Yamaha XS650 and the steps re just about the same for this Case.

Fist thing I would do is remove the valve cover may be a pain to get at but I really don't think anything at this point is going to be a five minute job that will result in any success. Once valve cover is off try wiggling the rocker arms to see if they both have some clearance on one cylinder this would indicate the valves are both closed and engine is on the compression stroke for that cylinder. Make a note of which cylinder it is and temporally set valve cover back on to keep dirt an such out of engine.

Now you might need someone with a welder, brazing torch or a tap and die set. Take one of the spark plugs and without damaging the threaded part that goes in the head break the ceramic insulator out of it so you end up with the threads for the head and the hex part the wrench goes on. Now what is needed is to figure out how to get a pipe bushing with 1/8 female pipe threads securely connected to the part of the plug body the ceramic used to come out. This needs to be a strong and leak proof connection. I don't know what or who you have to deal with but you will have to figure it out at your end.

If you manage to get that far next you need a good lever operated grease gun with a flexible hose on the end. Take off the end of the hose that would be used to connect to the grease fitting. Fill the cylinder that you noted the valves were both closed on with motor oil.

Next screw that homemade adapter on the end of the grease gun hose and then screw it in to the plug hole in the head. Next if this is a used grease gun remove the cartridge that hold the grease and fill the body of the gun with motor oil. As long as you can hold the grease gun up so the oil doesn't spill no need to put the end on the with the spring and plunger that pushes the grease down the tube.

Now pump the grease gun to force the oil into the cylinder. The oil pressure should easily push down on the piston to break it free.

This assumes the valves are closed and no major leaks past the piston. Simple math will tell you if say this engine has a 4 inch bore you have approx 12.56 square inches of surface area on that piston top and if you can only get 1,000 psi pressure on the grease gun you will be putting 12,560 pounds of pressure on that piston and if it is a good grease gun it should be able to build up to 10,000 psi for a pressure on the piston of 125,600 pounds of force that's over 60 tons!

If you do go this route and get it to turn the next part will be the messy part. You will need to crank that engine over to push out all the oil and other stuff you poured in the cylinders. And if you do it by hitting the starter be prepared for it to fly everywhere unless you have someway to contain it as it come out.

 

[Max.bare.ridge]

If I remember the CASE 580 correctly the hydraulic pump bolts onto the front of the crankshaft along with the pulley for the fan belt. You might be able to turn that drive shaft with a pipe wrench, don't over do it. Just try to make it turn a little each direction until the rust breaks free. If prying on the flywheel teeth hasn't moved it I don't know if you will have much success turning the other end.
If you can use the suck bucket to clear the cylinders you might be able to look in the plug holes with some type of borescope camera. My son has a cheap one that uses his phones display. It works OK. Look for corrosion and rust in the cylinders.

FYI like the suck bucket idea. I'll be building one real soon.
I also like using hydraulic pressure to break the cylinder free. Great tips.

 

[tasmanian hoe]

Could also be the cylinder that takes the least is full of water also. Did you check to see if water was in any of the cylinders before adding any penetrant.

Hi..No i didnt.. i wish i was told this before from my mechanic..

There's a few things that aren't adding up in my opinion. If the stuff that drained out of the oil pan didn't look like water, does that mean it didn't look like oil either? Get some on your hand, then run some drops of water over your hand, you'll know real quick if it's water or oil based. Same thing with the cylinders, dip a dried stick in there (like a piece of straw or old ragweed stalk) then see what level the liquid is and what level the piston is. Then dip that stick in water if you can't tell if it's water based or oil based gunk. The middle two pistons should be the same height, and the front and back should be the same height. All of the acetone should drain out of the cylinders overnight.

Hi.. When i removed the plug what came out was brown it looked looked like diesel fuel..it was brown and light weight.. i will try what you are saying tomorrow it is dark now..i will see you tomorrow..thanks

Did the engine turn at all for the mechanic? how far and how did he turn it? Does the belt turn with the alternator and water pump if you turn the fan blade and belt by hand?

There's a few things that aren't adding up in my opinion. If the stuff that drained out of the oil pan didn't look like water, does that mean it didn't look like oil either? Get some on your hand, then run some drops of water over your hand, you'll know real quick if it's water or oil based. Same thing with the cylinders, dip a dried stick in there (like a piece of straw or old ragweed stalk) then see what level the liquid is and what level the piston is. Then dip that stick in water if you can't tell if it's water based or oil based gunk. The middle two pistons should be the same height, and the front and back should be the same height. All of the acetone should drain out of the cylinders overnight.

Did the engine turn at all for the mechanic? how far and how did he turn it? Does the belt turn with the alternator and water pump if you turn the fan blade and belt by hand?

Could also be the cylinder that takes the least is full of water also. Did you check to see if water was in any of the cylinders before adding any penetrant.

Could also be the cylinder that takes the least is full of water also. Did you check to see if water was in any of the cylinders before adding any penetrant.

Could also be the cylinder that takes the least is full of water also. Did you check to see if water was in any of the cylinders before adding any penetrant.

Could also be the cylinder that takes the least is full of water also. Did you check to see if water was in any of the cylinders before adding any penetrant.