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Old man work? No.....he's with MSHA

Discussion in 'Safety Issues' started by RollOver Pete, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    Me either.

    And big business loves this too, from the manufacturers to the large construction outfits. I believe the onslaught of regulations (at this point in time) are designed to put the little guy out of business - I call it the Wal-mart doctrine. Sure safety and environmental regulations are needed and our society demands them, but one can go to far and into the realm of insanity which we are seeing now.

    Usually the biggest players in any field are the ones lobbying Congress and Fed gov't departments to develop more regulations in an industry - from licensing to safety. The big corp's have the money and a board room of lawyers to comply with it - the small guy does not. Put the small guy out of business and there's more market share. Crony capitalism at it's finest and it's been going on for a while.:mad:

    Now to comment on the original topic - I see nothing wrong with it and it won't affect the ROPS one bit. If a weld that small affected the structural composition of that ROPS then that D6 cutting edge we welded on the bottom of my 953 bucket 7 years ago should have already been ripped off with 2000 hours of use or the bucket itself imploded.:cool2

    That being said, never weld, drill or alter a ROPS in anyway if you want to trade in or sell the machine to another contractor - the value of the tractor will cut dramatically. Just my $.02 business advice, take it as one will.
     
  2. old-iron-habit

    old-iron-habit Senior Member

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    Big business might like it but big contractors/big jobs get inspected way more often then small jobs. Big contractors do NOT like it either. They get picked on more than their share.
     
  3. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    The 6011 rod works great for poor fit up's mating two pieces of steel together . It also has somewhat of a " fast freeze " effect when you step out of the puddle & come back for another lap . Bead has somewhat of a rougher looking texture compared to other rods . Penetrates & seals up great . I generally run the 6011 down hill on a root pass . Then climb back upward with 7018's on filler . Seem to have good luck with it .

    Nige , I understand & respect your position and opinion on the subject as far as repairing a rops cab or anything for that matter as you guys have strict rules & guidelines to go buy . I you waiver from it you may lose your job .

    Myself being I answer directly to customers needs on a given project allows me to make the decisions quickly and well .... Get the job done so to speak then move on to the next task .

    We are from two different worlds so it is always interesting conversing .:thumbsup

    And for crying out loud .... Grab a 5 pound box of E 6011 electrodes and give them a try on a small project sometime . I think you will like them :D
     
  4. Scrub Puller

    Scrub Puller Senior Member

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    Yair . . . This post a little off topic but it may be of interest.

    There is a great deal of discussion about electrodes on here, the welding forums and on the internet in general.

    I believe that in his #23 post td25c sums it up pretty well.

    I should add I don't claim to be an "expert", and have had no formal training.

    However when required I was able to gain certification to weld poisonous gas pipes, heat exchangers, aircraft manifolds and various other specialised TIG and stick applications.

    I have never used wire feed and while I realise it has become the industry standard I have repaired sufficient Migged failures to be somewhat leery of the process . . . not the system itself but rather the ability of all operators to set all the parameters in order to put down an effective run every time.

    In my experience with a stick weld if it looks good it is good and in fact it can look 'orrible and still be good to go . . . not so with MIG. It can look good but it's just laying on the top with little penetration just waiting for that bit of extra stress to cause the thing to fail.

    Which brings us back to electrodes.

    For every day run of the mill, non critical fabrication the general purpose designation 6012 is adequate for a wide variety of applications . . . even on high tensile a good fillet with a 6012 is better than a Gorilla snot effort with low hydrogen fizz sticks.

    I rarely use them these days and even on fabrications such as stickrakes and implements utilising used cutting edge a properly designed joint welded with GP's is adequate for most farming and non critical applications.

    Here in Australia the best of the Chinese 6012 electrodes are about one third the price of the big name brands and have similar classifications.

    When we moved down here and I was chasing a source of supply of "Chosun" sticks and one of the sales men at a welding supply business went right off and reckoned they were garbage . . . I quietly asked him how many pallets of them he had burned in the last 12 months.

    I then went on to tell him I had just finished welding the hull of a 65 foot trawler and felt I was in a rather better position than him to offer an opinion of their worth.

    Incidentally, unless the specifications have changed on steel vessels (for survey) we need to weld both sides of the plate . . . in the US they were only welded on the outside.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  5. Garrie Denny

    Garrie Denny Senior Member

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    Not sure about the welding quality unless it got x-rayed, but I did not see a seat belt fitting in the cab seat.
     
  6. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I ask you this - and by that I mean everyone who's posted on this subject.

    Would you be as happy to modify the seat belt mounting or air bag system on your personal ride..? To me whether it's a seat belt, an air bag, or a ROPS it's a safety aid that you have hoping you're never going to need it, but with the confidence that it can likely save your life if everything goes t1ts up. To quote Clint Eastwood - "Do you feel lucky punk?"
     
  7. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Nige , If a modification will benefit anything be it safety or to make something more productive then absolutely ! Run it past and I will try to help in any way I can mate .

    Scrub Puller , Totally agree . You know I never have burned a 6012 rod . I will have to try that . Found an interesting article on Millers web page talking about different rods .
    http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/stick-electrode-selection/

    You also hit the nail on the head about poor factory mig welds . They look good on top but may not penetrate well causing a failure . run in to this on some repairs . This snow plow attachment was like that .
    https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123930&stc=1&d=1410058548
    https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123931&stc=1&d=1410058567

    I ended up welding it back with continuous beads of 6011 rods & reinforcement steel . I've had a Miller 250 amp mig welder for 20 years now and like it but everything has its place . We still burn a lot of rods .;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
  8. Deeretracks

    Deeretracks Senior Member

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    I just cut a broken shank off a bucket yesterday. I was carbon arcing the factory welds out and was amazed at the porosity in the base welds. Terrible looking stuff but the finish passes were beautiful. I'm surprised the welds never cracked.
     
  9. oldtanker

    oldtanker Senior Member

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    OK, I can understand some rules. But in some cases they are just stupid. I knew a guy with a Huber Maintainer who got an OSHA fine because it didn't have anything to prevent someone from putting their hand in the engine compartment while it was running. Was built before that requirement for new equipment. If the machine was being operated the operator couldn't stick his hand in the engine compartment unless his arms were about 8 feet long. The only person would likely stick their hand in the engine compartment while it was running would have been a mechanic who would have to do it when making adjustments or bleeding the injectors. OK that's way far out there. I also question the welds shown. I understand that improper welds or exceeding the structural limits can make the ROPS fail. But that little bit? If the ROPS is that flimsy maybe it wasn't built strong enough in the first place.

    Rick
     
  10. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    In a short private meeting with a ROPS manufacturer's representative to a Forestry group he told me with some pride that the ROPS manufacturers were doing everything they could to promote new engineering and testing standards for protective structures. Also working tirelessly to have OSHA et al require ROPS and FOPS on any machines that may somehow have been allowed to skate all these years, like excavators and off road dumps.

    I'm all for safety, but once again the fox is being put in charge of security for the hen house. After all it works so well when the banking industry regulates itself right?

    I have shopped around a bit doing research on getting some ROPS structures designed and built for my own production. The average seems to run right at $100K to design, fabricate, and test the prototype. Test to failure, no matter if it passes the requirements without damage, it MUST be tested to failure, according to their own testing requirements, which they are lobbying to become law! There are currently a couple lower cost alternatives which seem perfectly adequate to me, all engineered and legal, but I am sure the bigger players will if possible put them out of business soon.

    When it comes to welds on any structure, and I bow to Nige as he has shown many times on this board his experience with critical structure repairs and failures, the smallest weld can become a stress riser with resulting fractures and eventual failure. Just because something looks good and has been there for a while without failure doesn't mean it's okay.
     
  11. Plant Fitter

    Plant Fitter Senior Member

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    I thought it was common knowledge that you can't drill, weld, or modify a ROPS frame?

    So really it is not relevant whether the weld is well done, poorly done, so small it doesn't matter, or whatever else - you just can't do it.
     
  12. oldtanker

    oldtanker Senior Member

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    Actually no, it's not common knowledge. I learned that right here on this thread. Now about 8 years ago one of my son in laws and I discussed starting our own excavating business. We did some internet research did some talking to a banker and looked at machinery. Then the housing meltdown started so it never went any further. Not once did we see anything about ROPS rules for OSHA. So it really isn't common knowledge. I did learn that before you do anything a person should get on government sites and so some very boring reading.

    Rick
     
  13. Deeretracks

    Deeretracks Senior Member

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    When you are working in a mining environment that is governed by MSHA you need to be more aware of the regulations and compliance requirements than most general contractors. MSHA is far more strict than OSHA. I have had to modify many machines that we rented to quarries and mines to make them MSHA compliant even though they were OSHA compliant in factory trim.
     
  14. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    It should be common knowledge, it's usually in the safety warnings in the front of every manual along with the smashed finger and exploding battery warnings. Maybe the original poster will give the total that that weld ended up costing and none of us will ever even think of doing something like that.
     
  15. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    OSHA/MSHA or the authorities in other countries like the UK Health & Safety Executive, it makes no difference. Here for the delectation of all HEF members are copies of the Cat old style (textual) & new style (graphic) warning decals that are fixed to every ROPS structure, plus an extract from the text of the Operator Manual.

    ROPS 1.png
    ROPS 2.png
    ROPS 3.png
    ROPS 4.png

    I'm sure other manufacturers have similar wording.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2014
  16. Bluox

    Bluox Senior Member

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    I guess you have never had any formal or pratical welding training to know almost all vertical welds on sheet metal are down hand welds and almost all stick welds on cross country pipelines are down hand welds.
    Bob
     
  17. oldtanker

    oldtanker Senior Member

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    Never noticed those. We were looking at older equipment.

    Rick
     
  18. Axle

    Axle Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that the big gulp holder rolled out of the CAT plant? (which I would assume meets the certified welder requirment mentioned earlier if it did, even if it looks like chicken ****-factory approved modification if it did indeed get delivered that way). Or was it dealer installed? Or original owner forgetting he tacked that on himself?

    Alex.
     
  19. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    Asked and answered.
     
  20. Garrie Denny

    Garrie Denny Senior Member

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    You stated that it had not been altered,SOMEONE did with the weld on stubby cooler:eek: