Kubota SSV65 EGR & DPF deletes?

[John C.]

I agree but the government types will tell you that is a warranty problem with the manufacturer who will tell you it is a government problem because of the requirement. Catch 22

 

[Wes J]

I figure it's no different than emissions crap on cars in the 70s. There's a reason no one buys or collects cars from the late 70s and early 80s. They were in the infancy of catalytic converters, unleaded gas, smog pumps, EGRs, fuel injection, PCV, etc. And it didn't work. Cars had much less power, were less reliable, and often got worse fuel economy.

By the late 1980s, they had things pretty well figured out. My 1989 F-150 would get 20 mpg and had plenty of power. It had fuel injection that always started. It had OBD1 and a computer that could sort of tell you what was wrong with it.

If you follow what has been happening with diesel emissions equipment since it really rolled out in 2003 or so, we've come a long way. Several companies now have Tier 4 Final engines that can pass emissions with no EGR. The SCR and DPF units have gotten much smaller and more reliable. The new units on trucks are half the size they used to be.

Now, if we can just reign in the over complicated crap like VGT turbos, multiple turbos, hydraulic engine brakes, auto shift transmissions, etc and get rid of the EGR and EGR cooler, while still meeting emissions, we'll be all set. It will happen. We're just not there yet.

 

[Birken Vogt]

By the late 1980s, they had things pretty well figured out. My 1989 F-150 would get 20 mpg and had plenty of power. It had fuel injection that always started. It had OBD1 and a computer that could sort of tell you what was wrong with it.

If you follow what has been happening with diesel emissions equipment since it really rolled out in 2003 or so, we've come a long way. Several companies now have Tier 4 Final engines that can pass emissions with no EGR. The SCR and DPF units have gotten much smaller and more reliable. The new units on trucks are half the size they used to be.

If they are getting stuff figured out they sure are taking their sweet time about it. And if they are able to get rid of those things I haven't seen it. In my industry they say things like: 20 kW get the Isuzu, that one is good. 60 kW the Isuzu is bad, get the Kubota. 80 kW get the Deutz. Who can keep all this straight? They all have different emissions packages but they all have ECMs, injectors with computer trim codes and cooled EGR still.

 

[Wes J]

Cummins and IVECO both have tier 4 final with no EGR.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Cummins can go pound sand since they swallowed up their dealers and cut off all support besides the dealer themselves doing the work. Besides 3.8L is too big for me.

Iveco, well, I have only ever seen one, and the dealer of record right now is one of those companies that picks up a dealership for every small manufacturer, who knows whether they can actually fix anything with the Italian engineers.

 

[Wes J]

Sounds like you are never going to be happy. Perhaps you should seek a new line of work. I don't see emission equipment going away.

 

[Birken Vogt]

No I am not going to be happy with this sorry state of affairs, and I am going to keep beating this drum. It doesn't cost me anything to say it and who knows who will read this.

All this harms the consumer for questionable benefit based on sketchy data. If LA wants to have Tier 4 stuff let them have it. Those of us here in the mountains did just fine with Tier 2. Now that Tier 4 is here the air is still just as clean as it was before.

We have to push back towards freedom sometimes because it is plain to see the other side is pushing against it, and is not going to stop now that Tier 4 is here.

 

[92U 3406]

I'm all for cleaner air but we need to find a balance of reliability and clean emissions. I think our biggest obstacle in terms of reliability is EGR. If we can get rid of EGR and clean up the NOx downstream of the turbo instead we'd be in much better shape. With EGR we're just suffocating an engine in its own soot.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I thought of another snappy rejoinder to this discussion.

We could solve all this with just dropping one letter.

You know how manufacturers still build the same good old stuff for what they term "Less Regulated Countries".

Drop the "r" and call it Less Regulated Counties.

No need for Tier 4 stuff in my county because LA county has a problem.

 

[Tones]

BV, Get your self a puter program to delete teir 4. I know of a bloke on the east coast who is doing this and is so flatout. He has done a new ASV RT120 removed everything teir 4 and bumped to 145hp. It now uses less per hour than before so thats gotta be good for environment, right?

 

[Wes J]

You don't really think it's going to stop at Tier 4 Final do you? If I know anything about the government, nothing is really "final".

A lot of blame needs to be heaped on the manufacturers. They all knew this stuff was coming. They all act like the rug was pulled out from under them. Companies like Navistar and Cat just couldn't figure it out. Again, like the auto makers in the 1970s.

Today, you can get a gas engine with 400hp that loaded with emissions gear. They can go 200,000 miles without even changing the spark plugs. Nobody talks about "deleting" them.

 

[Wes J]

I know of a bloke on the east coast who is doing this and is so flatout.

Don't get caught. EPA fines start at $37,500 per system.

In this area, dealers won't take trucks on trade if they have been deleted. They can get fined for selling them or even working on them.

 

[Tones]

Don't get caught. EPA fines start at $37,500 per system.

In this area, dealers won't take trucks on trade if they have been deleted. They can get fined for selling them or even working on them.

So the enviro nazi's realy have got you by the short and curly's then.

 

[Wes J]

So the enviro nazi's realy have got you by the short and curly's then.

I didn't make the rules. But, I also don't have $37,500 to flush down the toilet.

 

[Chadock]

Ok, we have a situation with a Kubota svl 95-2s error codes def sensor (quality of Adblue) and scr sensor (contact your dealer) have drain the def tank twice but still have the same issue what is your solution?.....any help would be appreciated........Ricl

 

[Gene Allar]

we have egr dpf solution for kubota engines pls message me with machine details

I hav a Case 621F. Do you have a delete? Nothing but problems. 715-613-4045

 

[apetad]

Okay- say you have a tier 4 final piece of equipment, lets say skid loader. 5 years from now the electronics and emissions stuff is all haywire, not working, etc. Maybe the wiring harness burns, motor locks up, whatever. I buy it as salvage, pull the def, dpf, or whatever motor, and shove a 4bt cummins in there with a 12v fuel solenoid and a ignition switch, hopefully its pilot hydro controls, and I just make it all manual and ditch the computers. If I'm in California, do the emissions police come after me?

For Ruger_556- if you're just changing oil, how are you supposed to know what the emissions system is supposed to look like? How would you know if something is gone? and how would some gov't agency prove that you know its not there?

California will actually sniff the exhaust, if they catch you running dirty $5000 day

 

[BigWrench55]

I’m seeing a lot of talk about DEF, EGR delete on HEF. Like it or not teir 4 final is here and isn’t going away it’s only going get more stringent from here. Unless the manufacturers nut up and tell the epa to pound sand. And I don’t want to get into a back and forth about how it’s terrible and less efficient than what it use to be.( I don’t like it either and I think EGR on a diesel is ridiculous) but there are things you can do to make it less problematic. 1.) don’t skip regens! 2.) don’t run the def fluid out to the point of engine debate. 3.) put clean and fresh def fluid in. These are some of the most common issues that the teir 4 engines have. I really think that the dealers should have a duty educate owners more about this. And train their mechanics as well. I’ve worked for dealers and I know that they train outsiders more than they train their own techs. I personally don’t have a real problem with teir 4 because I understand it and know how to fix it. Rarely is it ever a product issue or a software issue. It’s mostly operator error.

 

[KSSS]

I’m seeing a lot of talk about DEF, EGR delete on HEF. Like it or not teir 4 final is here and isn’t going away it’s only going get more stringent from here. Unless the manufacturers nut up and tell the epa to pound sand. And I don’t want to get into a back and forth about how it’s terrible and less efficient than what it use to be.( I don’t like it either and I think EGR on a diesel is ridiculous) but there are things you can do to make it less problematic. 1.) don’t skip regens! 2.) don’t run the def fluid out to the point of engine debate. 3.) put clean and fresh def fluid in. These are some of the most common issues that the teir 4 engines have. I really think that the dealers should have a duty educate owners more about this. And train their mechanics as well. I’ve worked for dealers and I know that they train outsiders more than they train their own techs. I personally don’t have a real problem with teir 4 because I understand it and know how to fix it. Rarely is it ever a product issue or a software issue. It’s mostly operator error.

I would also add that buyers don't educate their employees either. I have owned a Tier 4i skid steer and own two Tier 4 Final skid steers now a CTL and wheeled machine. I put just under 2K hours on the Tier 4i and the machine never saw the inside of a shop. Many seemed to struggle with the DPF machines, I ran mine hard and it responded very well. My current CTL has 1K on it and it has never had an issue. The wheeled DEF machine has 500 hours and I have had zero issues with it either. When I talk with the mechanics there are some machines that have repeated problems, their impression is that at the operator level they are not idling the machine at higher levels in cold weather, continued problems of running out of DEF, and not running the machines hard enough to get them warm. I am close enough in the day to day operations to prevent operations that are detrimental to the machines. I think these issues are why you are seeing a large number of compact machines and backhoe's being released under 75 hp that are do not have DEF and only run DOC. With the high turn over in this industry, and a large majority in some sectors that cant speak English, teaching operators the intricacies of DEF machines appears to quite a challenge.

 

[willie59]

When I was chasing a rental fleet around our most frequent offender was the Kubota SVL90-2, frequently having DPF issues, and almost every time it was the operators just puttering around on them at low RPM. Of course rental salesmen don't "crash course" rental customers on how to run the machine, it's only when I showed up to fix the problem were they told by me to "run the dog snot out of that engine".