JCB 217 SIII, can't develop power

[obleck]

For archival purposes, the tool for the tamper proof screws is a "5 point pentalobe torx" bit, not sure what number (i.e. size). I ordered a set on ebay for about $6.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Pentalobe.?? Mine are marked Tamperproof..
Reminds me of "Jackalope".. lol
U have to be very careful where u buy them.. I wont use anything but "Strap-on's" otherwise they break after the first attempt.. & if u only have 1.?? well ur standing there lookin goofy.. lol
Almost every pump manuf. has started using them.. so I just buy 2 ata time..{singles}

BTW> have u checked the throttle LEVER movement.?? is it hitting the stop screw @ wide open throttle.?? U can get more rpms by UNSCREWING the stop screw a full turn..
NO MORE.. especially if your tach is broken.!!!
A HAND HELD LASER tach is the only thing I use.. NEVER rely on a machines tach..

 

[thepumpguysc]

Are u getting the "bits" to take the cover off the booster on the pump??
If its blown, it'll be obvious.. Once u determine its condition.. push down on it or the rod underneath..
The rod should come back up under its own power.. I've seen those things get so stuck from water in the fuel {rust} that u would hafta take a punch & hammer to getm loose.
IF that rod is stuck, u found your problem.. & of course a blown diaph.
Good luck & I HOPE you find something..

OH.. 1 MORE THING>> get yourself a hand impact driver..& use it w/ those bits..
1 or 2 hits w/ a hammer & they'll unscrew.. IF U DONT, those bits will break.

 

[obleck]

I'll try to dig up the manual #.. I posted it awhile back..
.. In the meantime, try searching for it up top in the search box..
Its a COMPLETE engine teardown & rebuild manual along w/ ALL the components..

Thanks 'pumpguy. I poked around for a bit and couldn't find it. I do have the rebuild manual from Delphi.

I'm hoping someone can still answer my question about the turbo back pressure I encountered when rev'ing (under no load). I described it in more detail above, but basically: there's a small plug on the main air filter cap, and when I rev the engine, I get positive pressure out of it. Is this normal? I'd think it would be sucking, no? If it's normal, why is this? If it's not normal, what could be causing it? (some restriction in the intake manifold? valve timing issue? bad valve? exhaust gas somehow getting back into the intake through the turbo or somewhere? Something else?) Obviously this would explain the power problem I'm having.

 

[obleck]

For archival purposes: I've learned that the positive pressure at the air filter apparently is for dust evacuation, i.e. there is some sort of valve that normally goes in the hole which vents out dust as it collects. It was deep in a Perkin's manual and I found it at someone' suggestion.

Darn it. Need to find something that's actually wrong here.

 

[obleck]

Are u getting the "bits" to take the cover off the booster on the pump??
If its blown, it'll be obvious.. Once u determine its condition.. push down on it or the rod underneath..
The rod should come back up under its own power.. I've seen those things get so stuck from water in the fuel {rust} that u would hafta take a punch & hammer to getm loose.
IF that rod is stuck, u found your problem.. & of course a blown diaph.
Good luck & I HOPE you find something..

OH.. 1 MORE THING>> get yourself a hand impact driver..& use it w/ those bits..
1 or 2 hits w/ a hammer & they'll unscrew.. IF U DONT, those bits will break.

Thanks 'pumpguy! That's the next plan, super helpful. I'm VERY seriously hoping said rod is stuck in the up position (!)

Bits are in hand. Will be extra careful to not strip them. I do have an impact driver. Sounds like they are super-torqued?

 

[rondig]

Just curious ..did anyone check governor rack on fuel pump?

 

[thepumpguysc]

No rack.. rotary pump..

 

[Therapydoc]

My turbo boost cover bolts weren’t that tight really. Maybe a 10mm if I remember. I actually replaced them with black oxide Allen socket head screws that are easier to get ahold of

 

[obleck]

Update:

OKAY! 'Pumpguy, you know your stuff.

Attached below, pix of bad boost diaphragm. And I mean bad.

The cover screws came off pretty easily, I just put the bit on a small socket wrench. The "5 lobe security torx" is a #25, for the archive.

I need a new diaphragm. Does anyone know where I can get one in the USA? Delphi sells them in their store in UK, and there are European ebay sellers, but I haven't found a faster source. I've got a request in to our regional diesel service shop.

The part is Lucas/Delphi/CAV PN 7243-006 for the assembly, and I think the diaphragm by itself is 7182-580A. It's 43mm.

 

[Therapydoc]

7135-277G there’s also some different ones on eBay. My local guy had a generic rebuild kit that I broke the plastic center piece out and just used diaphragm with all old parts.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Doc is correct, this time.. 7135-277G
They are NOT all the same, so be careful with "a little knowledge"..
Oblek.. yours should be a plug & play.. order the kit & drop the diaphr. in & button it up.
IF u cant find the kit lemme know.. I might have 1 "layin around"..

OH & TO QUOTE ANOTHER RECENT THREAD.. "I am SO impressed w/my work"..

 

[obleck]

What's the difference in the diaphragms? I've been looking around of a couple hours now and it seems like people talk about them pretty arbitrarily. I don't have the parts manual though.

This doc lists a bunch of part numbers, old and new:
http://www.delphidiesel.com/SD_ONLY/MORED0CS/HIDDEN/SI Notes/513.pdf

Old Part No. Description New Part No. P/List Lsn
7182-643 Boost Diaphragm 7243-006* 732
7243-090 Boost Diaphragm 7243-006* 732
7135-277D DP200 Side Boost Kit 7135-277F 9999
7182-643A Boost Diaphragm 7243-053* 732
7135-277C DP200 Top Boost Kit 7135-277E 9999
7135-125 DPS Overhaul Kit 7135-277G 9999 *

This too:
http://www.delphidiesel.com/sd_only/MORED0CS/HIDDEN/SI Notes/527.pdf
The only real difference I can see anywhere is the side mount and top mount boost control.

Generically, everything seems to point to this kit: 7135-277J But I can't find the darn thing (or any of these) anywhere in the US online. Hoping my local diesel shop has one on the shelf.

Incidentally, this doc: http://www.delphidiesel.com/SD_ONLY/MORED0CS/HIDDEN/SI 20Notes/514.pdf
says:
"Customers must be advised that boost diaphragms MUST NOT be changed without a full pump re-test. If a customer wishes to purchase a diaphragm kit, they should be made aware that changing the diaphragm on the pump would affect the calibration of the pump, which could cause engine problems. If the pump is not re-tested, it will not meet the original engine performance and you will not be able to ensure engine emissions comply with emissions legislation. Any vehicle failing roadside emissions checks could lead to fines/prosecution for the driver/owner and possible liability to the seller of the pump components."

Heh! Not planning on that.

 

[thepumpguysc]

It doesn't matter what the diff. is.. it just is.. I can get the kit.. 76.09 + frt.. to me & then to u..

 

[obleck]

Update:

I was able to locate a kit locally from a diesel shop, PN 2135-277F in this case, had to pay the "convenience tax" since they are only about $40 with shipping from Delphi directly (shipped from UK). It appears that 2135-277x (where x is D,E,F,G, maybe others) all have the same shape of diaphragm in them, though G I think is Viton, i.e. a better material. Some of them have a plastic assembly as Doc I think noted. In my case, I had to remove the new diaphragm and mount it on the old assembly because the metal cup that sits on the plunger was a different shape.

So, I dropped it in, and wah-lah! Huge difference.

There's a guy in Germany on ebay that sells just the diaphragm with no hardware for about $10 plus shipping, so I'm going to order a spare or two.

I also discovered the tach wasn't working because the alternator belts were slipping (quietly). Yay, easy fix.

I think the machine is still a little under-powered so I may take out that shim. We'll see.

Anyway, I think we're mostly good! Thanks everyone. I'll post more if anything changes.

 

[Therapydoc]

If you take shims out, can you try to take some pictures of where they are and what they look like? I’m still lost on that one. I’d be curious to see how much added power you get.

 

[obleck]

Hi everyone,

Small update and question:

The machine has been running pretty well with the new diaphragm, and I'm able to get full RPMs while driving. However, I'm still not getting the power I need when pushing into a pile and scooping up the front end loader.

Basically when I've got it in first, I'm pushing into a pile, the RPMs sag, and I loose power. I presume this is because the turbo boost has let off.

'pumpguy, are you still out there? We've touched on the adjustments one can make in the boost diaphragm assembly, but what are these actually doing?

What I think I need for my situation is more sensitivity, i.e. that the boost starts happening at lower pressure, so that it's boosting when the RPM's otherwise start sagging. I noted that the diagrams say that there is a screw adjustment of some sort--is this adjusting the preload on a spring that the diaphragm pushes on, and it can be softened?

I imagine there is also an adjustment for how much boost you can get, i.e. a limit stop on the fuel, and it sounds like the shims would perhaps do that.

Anyway, before I open it up again, I thought I'd ask.

Thanks!

 

[thepumpguysc]

We've "talked" about the shims till I'm blue in the face..{fingers}
YES they have/had shims.. They are/were under the diaph.. & under the spring.. the spring IS SITTING ON the shims..if they're still there..
The shims tell the diaphr. when to start throwing the fuel to it.. LESS SHIMS means it'll come in quicker..
That's why I keep telling u to TAKE THEM OUT..
As far as any screw adjustment go.. they've probably been turned already?? it takes about 700.00 in special tools to set 1 up to spec & THEN u can start to mess w/ it..
The only advice I can give u is>> Take out the shims & move the screw adjustment 1 way or the other BUT keep note of which way & how much u turned it.. good luck..
BTW> have u ever taken a boost reading.!!?? Ur probably whipping a dead horse & ur trying to shove fuel up its azz.