JCB 217 SIII, can't develop power

[obleck]

There "should be" someplace on the manifold to take "boost pressure".. prob. a 5/16 plug??
A 30psi gauge & a length of hose that'll reach into the cab & your in business.. THEN u can take FULL LOAD boost pres.

Yeah, I'll try, but I also can't develop full load, which is the problem...

Below is a pic of the turbo ID plate, but it's a little hard to read (and photograph). It's obviously a Garrett GT2052, but can anyone decipher the version from the pic? Sorry about the quality. It was really hard to get a camera in there at all.

Thanks again.

 

[Delmer]

In this case, full load is the load that slows the engine down below full speed. In a backhoe you can do that by driving up a hill in a middle to high gear.

is that a coolant hose in the pic in post #12? the medium sized hose with the hose clamp.

 

[obleck]

Hi Delmer, yeah okay, I'll try it, but I can assure you it's not ~90+HP! LOL

I don't know what that large hose is. The small one is clearly oil, and it goes to that smaller thing on the side of the block from which the metal turbo oil line comes off. I got the SPI2 running, and I can't see that whole assembly anywhere, just the turbo oil line and the turbo. Still looking...

From SPI2, it also looks like the official part number of the turbo is 2674A391, probably the top line in the picture, though this old turbo is an A325.

 

[Therapydoc]

Following this thread. I have a mid 90s 217s 4cx and seems under powered in higher gears. I figured it was just bc it was such a large machine (all 4 large tires) It has trouble pulling large hills in 3rd or 4th gear. Now when digging into a dirt pile with front bucket, I have tons of power. Seems to be more than the 90hp new holland tractor we have. I’d like to find a way to get more Hwy/boost power but not sure what to change.

Hey pumpguy how can I check to see if I’m getting boost? I have a Lucas CAV pump. I have serial and all if that would help. I just replaced the diaphragm in the AFC as it was leaking fuel. I have an electric fuel pump that the previous owner added. No idea if it’s the correct one or not. My turbo whistles.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Doc>> if you already had the "boost" apart then your familiar w/ the inards.. UNDER the diaph. are some shims.. Takem out.. Probably a .050" stack of'm..?? That'll get u alittle "pep in'r step"..

 

[Delmer]

boost instructions are in post #20. The spec for your engine might be in your manual, or 10-20psi would seem fine to me.

 

[Therapydoc]

Doc>> if you already had the "boost" apart then your familiar w/ the inards.. UNDER the diaph. are some shims.. Takem out.. Probably a .050" stack of'm..?? That'll get u alittle "pep in'r step"..

Only thing I took off was the outer afc casing. It just had the diaphragm, spring, and a plunger rod is what I’d call it that goes into the pump itself. Just one about 1.5”-2” long. Are you saying that that rod completely out ?

 

[obleck]

I'm starting to be convinced that thing in the picture from post #12 is the lubrication oil pump. Supposedly this engine has some oil sprayers in the block that lubricate the pistons more directly. I suppose it's possible this pump can go on either side of the engine, depending on configuration. Attached are a couple of screen shots from SPI2, and neither one has the pump in it, but both sides of the engine have a port on the sides near the lower front of the engine.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Doc.. under the spring around the threaded bushing, are shims..

 

[jimg984]

its a connector/regulator,,,connects oil from pump to the bearings of the 10,000 RPM turbo

 

[obleck]

its a connector/regulator,,,connects oil from pump to the bearings of the 10,000 RPM turbo

You're referring to the small metal block bolted to the side of the engine block with the rubber hose attached to it and the turbo oil feed line?

The other end of the rubber hose I presume is connecting to the lubrication oil pump, in this case installed on the front right side of the engine. Ref photo in post #12. I can't find any part numbers for either that hose (which I need to replace), or what I think is the pump.

 

[obleck]

Update:

I pulled the turbo out and it seems fine. In fact, I think this machine has pretty low hours, but just had very little maintenance.

I ordered a new lift pump and went to install it, but the pump lever was a slightly different shape and thus didn't fit. So I took the old one apart and it seemed fine too. Sprayed it out just in case.

So... I'm pretty sure the fuel is getting to the fuel filter okay, but... then what happens...? There are six pipes going in and out of the filter. It's the boost that has me very confused, and as I mentioned, I can't find the doc's for this particular machine.

I pasted below an annotated picture of the fuel lines and fuel filter. Yellow is the primary fuel line coming from the lift pump and into the injector pump. Green is the coming from the injector pump and also from the in injectors, some sort of return? Red comes from the intake manifold (pressurized by the turbo), through (?) the fuel filter mount, and down to the top/end of the injector pump just above where the four injector lines some out of the back. There's also the kill solenoid, which has the blue connector.

Questions:
1) What are all these lines actually, and how are plumbed inside of the fuel filter mount?
2) How does the injector pump boost work? What's boosting what? Is the boost line coming from the intake manifold in fact pneumatic? There is incidentally a single wire connected to the fitting on the intake manifold, so there seems to be some sort of sender.

(Gosh, this sure would be easier with the manuals...)



Lastly, I found this in another forum:

If you got the perkins with the Delphi/CAV/Lucas type fuel pump then it is very common for the boost diaphragm to split which then when the turbo comes on boost it leaks all the boost pressure in to the fuel return line and pressurises the fuel tank with air.

This seems consistent with what pumpguy noted, though with a twist.

Anyway, if someone can explain the entire "boost" system to me, I'd be eternally grateful.

The pump by the way is a Lucas type 1182 (which is a delphi dp200?), model 8920A332T

Thanks!

 

[Therapydoc]

What’s your serial number ? I probably have the correct manual for you

 

[thepumpguysc]

Red is inlet.
Green & Yellow are return fuel.
The TOP line on the "afc" is the turbo boost line// pressurized air comes off the intake manifold..{I think}
The bottom "afc" line hooks into the return also.. hence if the diaphragm blows, it pressurizes the return fuel & the fuel tank..

 

[Therapydoc]

And FYI I replaced that diaphragm and it didn’t make any difference on my machine as far as road gears. My low end torque has always been good.

 

[obleck]

What’s your serial number ? I probably have the correct manual for you

Hi Therapydoc, thanks kindly. 472245 ca 1998. I've managed to find a manual or two that claim to cover it, but not so much. Electrical is wrong. Also, these manuals don't cover much about the engine or fuel system and more or less "redirect". I then found a Perkins manual and not much there either on the boost system, though slightly more in that they at least list the pumps they use. So then I was looking for a Lucas/Delphi manual for the pump itself but haven't located one yet.

PM me as needed.

Thanks again

 

[thepumpguysc]

The pump manual will just tell u about "rebuilding" the pump.. nothing else..
I think they're avail. if u search DP200 work shop manual..??
I think u want the perkins PHASER 1000/1100 engine manual..

 

[Therapydoc]

The Perkins 1000 manual I found was about useless. More of an operators manual and maintenance manual than service. If anyone finds something else let me know

 

[thepumpguysc]

I'll try to dig up the manual #.. I posted it awhile back..
.. In the meantime, try searching for it up top in the search box..
Its a COMPLETE engine teardown & rebuild manual along w/ ALL the components..

 

[obleck]

Update:

Therapydoc, thanks for the manual. Indeed, it's not totally compatible--electrically at least--with my machine. Mystifying why it's not out there. I have 3-4 different ones now. Mostly I need to decipher which fuses and relays are which! I have a lot of electrical stuff not working yet, e.g. AC, various lights, etc. Also the tach... very weird. 0But its the same on all the machines, just two taps off the alternator.

I finally got the picture together on the boost. Pics below for the next guy looking at this. It's the round assembly on the front/top of the pump. One line goes in marked "air" with an arrow. That line comes from a tap on the intake manifold at the very front of it (see other pic). I disconnected the boost line at both ends and blew it out, and also the connector at the manifold, but it didn't make a difference. I also found a dp200 workshop manual, and its got various instructions for assembly/
disassembly. However, mine has that tamper proof screw, so I'm about to look for that tool or drill them out or dremmel a slot in them for a screwdriver. I keep forgetting to explicitly do the pressure check at the gas cap, but I also haven't noticed any hissing/etc.

One thing I did do is this: the small ~1.5" plug at the bottom of the air filter is missing on my machine. I put my hand over it and played with the throttle, expecting it to be sucking (especially with the turbo spooled up), but often it was actually fairly pressurized. Is this normal? Or is there a blockage in my intake manifold or something? (As noted early on, there was a critter nest at the air intake before the air filter).

Lastly, below is also attached a picture of the mystery intake manifold tap on the right rear of the engine above the turbo. There is a wire coming off, which appears to be the pressure sender for the airflow restriction light, but there is also a 1/8" pipe coming off it which runs somewhere over toward the other side of the engine. Originally I thought it was the boost and that it ran somehow into the oil filter mount (?!), but I can't really tell where it goes since it disappears behind the engine and I wasn't able to track it with certainty. Why would a fuel return line go to the intake manifold?

Thanks again everyone!