IT28F engine problem sounds bad.

[Phil P]

I had just sent a message to one of the poster here about how good this machine is doing.

Then yesterday I went to the ranch where this one is and find the old 930 (no letter after the model number) wheel loader doing all the work.

They told me the IT28 had started making noise and smoking blue smoke from under the hood not out of the exhaust pipe.

What I found was a large size oil splatter on the right side of the engine compartment (all reference to location is from sitting in the operator’s seat) I can’t see where the oil is coming from.

I started the engine and shut it down quickly. It sounds like the lifters have collapsed or rods knocking.

I have no idea where to start looking on this unit any ideas will be greatly appreciated.

Phil P

 

[Cmark]

Start by letting us know the serial number.

 

[Vetech63]

Location of the oil leak may answer a lot of your questions. Hopefully its not a hole in something that isn't supposed to have one.

 

[Mobiltech]

When you say smoking from under the hood do you mean out the breather or is there an exhaust leak?

 

[Phil P]

S/N 3CL00239

The exhaust is on top of this thing. The smoke was from the area below the top of the engine there is an oil splash on the fan guard that covers about ¼ of the fan guard. This area is just below the injection pump.

Oil is just everywhere I didn’t see any place that would indicate a source.

The oil level is at the bottom of the hash mark on the dipstick that indicates it needs oil from the sizes of the engine I would guess it needs 1 gallon of oil.

The coolant is at the proper level.

I am just finishing an IH Case and then they went under a low tree today and wiped out the roof and exhaust system on the articulating IH Case.

If I was full time and not just trying to train a young fellow to take over the maintenance for this outfit I would defiantly not worry about job security. LOL

Phil P

 

[Cmark]

It's a 3116 engine. Not an injection pump but a governor. There is a steel tube supplying oil to the governor and from your description, it may be the source of the leak. However smoke and knocking suggest you may be too late. I would start by cutting open and inspecting the oil filter.

 

[Phil P]

Thanks for the note.

This one is on the back burner the other equipment is more important to keep running.

The oil filter will be cut open for sure.

The blue smoke I am sure is from hot oil sprayed on a hot engine.

This unit started surging at idle and on occasion would stall at idle about a month ago. This would come and go I found that by increasing the idle speed about 25 rpm that would go away but the idle adjustment screw is frozen in the aluminum housing of the governor. So I left it alone.

This outfit is on a large ranch and that machine failed while running from the north end to the center of the ranch a run of about 4 miles when this happened. The operator said he heard the noise first and when he looked back saw the smoke so shut it down. When I got there I had him start it. It was hard to start, did not accelerate like it should and made the rattle or knocking noise I had him shut down it may have run 20 seconds total.

They towed the machine about 2 miles to the shop. I didn’t even think you could steer them without hydraulic power but the operator said it was hard but did steer.

I stared it in the shop it was hard to start and made noise more like collapsed lifters than rods. I only ran it for a few seconds and shut it down. I have turned the battery disconnect off and removed the key so it can’t be started again.

I advised them to see about leasing a machine for a month or so the only other one we have is the 930 wheel loader and it takes half a day to change from forks to bucket.




Phil P

 

[Steve Frazier]

Phil, please use the default font when posting. The larger font makes your posts difficult to read. Thanks

 

[Delmer]

But thank goodness for sentence structure, paragraphs, and punctuation!

 

[Phil P]

Steve will do

Phil P

 

[kshansen]

Steve will do

Phil P

Dang! how did we let a fast learner in this place?

 

[Phil P]

Hi

I got time today to remove the oil filter and cut it open. There was some metal but not a large amount like I find in some on engines that had a serious failure.

I installed a new filter and started the engine. At startup there was some screeching noise and knocking but went away suddenly after a few seconds of run the screech started again. At that point we shut down.

Here is a video with sound for you all to look at and see what you think.

Phil P

 

[Cmark]

Some metal? I'd prefer no metal. Post a photo of the filter chop.

 

[Phil P]

Hi

I have been cutting filters open for 60 years on equipment that regulations require a filter cut every 50 hours.

When we found no metal was more concern than some metal that it took a magnifying glass to see.

I took 3 pictures with a high res camera and can’t see the metal to much glare from lighting. All I can tell you is there was no metal that a magnet could pickup. When I laid the segments of the element down with my finger I could see a few bright colored things that I assume were aluminum not the correct color for brass or copper.

When I open a filter from an engine that has had a major failure you don’t have to look for the metal. This is what I expected to a find little surprised that I didn’t.

This unit was due for service we are on 500 hour service interval except for the late model equipment that the manufacturer specifies a 700 hour interval.

The sound the engine made on this startup did not sound like crankshaft bearings or pistons if you listened to the video you can hear a high pitched screech associated with the initial noise both stooped abruptly and then when the noise started coming back if was preceded with that screeching sound just briefly.

The oil line to the governor is not leaking and the fuel lines associated with the governor are also not leaking.

This machine lives in the swamp so is always packed with mud and foliage. The radiator and coolers are cleaned with compressed air daily.

Phil P

 

[Nige]

500 hours on that engine between oil changes is IMHO pushing it, even with modern lubricants, and especially considering the working conditions you describe in your post above. OEM recommendation is every 250 hours or 3 months, whichever comes first, in "normal" operating conditions.

The "screeching" noise sounds external to the engine to my ears - bearing in the fan drive somewhere maybe.? *Other opinions may be available.

Also don't lose sight of the fact that you may have two parallel unrelated problems that by coincidence happened at the same time, or close to it. The oil "leak" - crankcase breather.? Maybe related to the extended oil change intervals. Then the noise which as I said above could potentially be a bearing at the fan end of the engine.

 

[Phil P]

Hi

I agree what I heard today sounds like something external. I am fully aware that I may have more than one item giving trouble.

I finished the AC on the Case farm tractor today and only have to close the hood (it takes 2 men).

Monday I will take some fan belts off and see if I have something in that system going bad.

I have sent an oil sample off to Kansas for analyses. They will tell me what metal items in the engine are contaminating the oil.

The other thing that is bothering me we do fuel filters more often than anything else. I did the fuel filters on this unit about 3 months ago. The engine had started surging at idle and sometimes stalling at idle. When I pulled the primary fuel filter it was full of microbial material. I am having trouble getting them to treat their bulk fuel tanks. I never got that surge out of the system the idle screw is frozen in the governor housing.

Before I can go much further addressing that problem I need to know why so much fuel goes thru the governor before it goes to the secondary fuel filter. I have been unable to obtain any material that describes this fuel injection system and explains how it functions. This machine is too old to be configured like the newer high pressure common rail injection systems. May be it is more like the 2,000 HP GM EMD engines I worked on in ships. This is where formal training is so valuable.

On top of that my Caterpillar experience is limited to these 2 machines and 2 9UD6 bull dozers I rebuilt the engines in 45 years ago.

I am only part time as a consultant with this outfit and will be gone for a couple of weeks starting the middle of next week.

I thank all of you for your input. It is apparent some of you have extensive experience with the Caterpillar equipment.

Phil P

 

[Cmark]

They are what's called a MUI (Mechanical Unit Injector) system. Low pressure fuel goes through a galley in the cylinder head and each injector is actuated by the camshaft to produce injection pressure. The large fuel flow helps take away the heat.

Similar to the old 2 stroke GM injectors, if you're familiar with those.

 

[Nige]

I’ll post up the SysOp for the fuel system for you tomorrow.

It might pay to climb into the fumes disposal system and clean out the screen that mounts on top of the valve cover. Changing oil @ 500-hour intervals could have led to some smudging and consequent blockage. The wire mesh screen can be cleaned with diesel or any other solvent you have to hand.

Algae in the bulk fuel tank (if that’s what’s plugging the filters) could be a potentially difficult problem to overcome, if what you say about maintenance on the property is even half-way true. They’re just not going to “get it”.

 

[Phil P]

Cmark

Thank you I have extensive experience with the 2 stroke GM products 53 71 and 92 series. Then does this engine have a rack like the Detroit diesel?

Nige

I have been requesting them to treat every load of diesel delivered. Just the amount of treatment for the amount of fuel delivered. They have the idea this would result in over treatment so I get it now and then but not enough. All fuel dispensing equipment on the tank farm have filters I change every 3 months. Even when I show the management the stuff I get out of the primary fuel filters they still just order treated fuel every once in a while.

The 930 has been put into sever service now and I haven’t been paying attention to that unit. It was destine for the scrap yard when I found a spindle, got it running on 3 cylinders and put some used tires on it. I notice yesterday it now is running on all 4 cylinders and doesn’t need either to start even though the heaters are not working. I think Monday I will bring it into the shop and do a good service on it. I have no records on this machine not even how long they have had it.

One thing about the service environment it is wet but not dusty I don’t have problems with air filters with the exception of the O turn radius mowers and I service them every Monday morning.

Here is something for both of you to think on I work on engines that are scheduled for their first oil change at 2,000 hours that is not a typo error. They use a filter system that is permanent and is washed out with a petroleum product specified by the engine manufacturer. Then the cleaning fluid is sent to the lab for analysis. I will let you guess what kind of engine.

The reason I will be gone for a couple of weeks is to do the oil change on one of these engines in order to make enough money to keep playing with this old antique equipment these guys have. LOL

Phil P

 

[Cmark]

Yes it has a rack. Identical in principle but different in detail. Have a look inside the rocker box and it should look kinda sorta familiar.

I get your point about drain intervals. Scheduled fluid analysis has made preventative maintenance a much more nuanced topic. As always it's about economics; What is the cost of carrying out an oil change and sample at 250hrs vs just a sample? If the engine only takes 10 gal of oil, it may be more economical to change it at every service than to carry out just an analysis, find out it should have been changed and then reschedule the downtime to go back and change it. With a 500 gal sump, the figures would most probably work out differently.