How do you determine the remaining life of a Case 450C undercarriage?

[Bote]

I've never owned a dozer so excuse my ignorance. I’m looking at a CASE 450C that a friend has for sale. It has 7100 hours. It starts and runs fine; everything seems to work but the tracks seem sloppy to me. My friend doesn’t know much more about dozers than I do. He knows nothing of the previous history. He bought it in 2008 for next to nothing and only used it once. He wants $12k for it which seems like a good price, but I don’t want another project, even if it is a bargain. The sprockets don’t appear excessively worn, and the track adjusters aren’t extended to limit so maybe they just need to be adjusted. Another bud who has a 550 is going to check it out with me next week. I’m thinking I should just buy a shop manual and study it before I commit. It’s not on the market so there’s no hurry.

 

[1693TA]

That would be a very good idea as undercarriage determines value in crawlers. A bad undercarriage has put many tractors down. Most of the information will be in a service manual along with good interpretation on your part, and an unbiased source of evaluation.

Price seems a bit high to me for the machine, but I'm no expert by any means.

 

[Acoals]

Get pictures up here, there are a lot of guys on here who can give you a solid opinion based on good pictures. Get pictures of the drive sprockets, idlers, rollers and chains, particularly the underside of the chains where they ride on the rollers and where the sprockets interact with them. If you look around here there is a good video on the topic, I think John C put it up.

 

[John C.]

I have a series of videos that will give you good information on what to look for. In order to make any kind of accurate projection, you would need to have someone measure all the components. Track pitch, track bushing diameter, roller diameters, step height on the idler and possibly some measurement on sprocket teeth pitch. You can watch my video on dozer chains at the link below. There are other videos in my channel that show excavator, high drive and the new stuff call System 1 and Plus. Good Luck!

 

[DMiller]

Will need a Specifications Manual on the machine to show or present Track Rail Idler, Roller and Sprocket wear levels.

 

[Bote]

Great video John C. I also bought the service manual which has details information on checking the undercarriage. I'll study over the next couple days and probably check it out this weekend. It's not on the market so there's no hurry and it's only 5 miles away.

I'd love to find a good one for a better price, but the small Case machines bring a premium around here. Any of the small Cats and JDs are also expensive. I'd really like to find a machine for around $20k with less hours.

 

[Mcrafty1]

Lots more info needed to determine the worth of that machine, it also depends on what you are going to be doing with it, At 7100 hrs. the UC should have been changed at least once and could very well be in need of an upgrade again, if that's the case it is a bit steep in price but again, much more to consider before an accurate conclusion could be made. With today's economy, the machine being just 5 mi. from you that in itself would make it somewhat desirable....if you are going to put it to work daily on jobs as opposed to putting around the back 40 building four wheeler trails, that would have an impact also, if the machine has been kept up ie: engine oil changes/filter, trans final drive fluids/filters changed when needed things like that play a big part in machine values. JMHO.

 

[Bote]

I put about 120 hours a year on my backhoe and would probably not exceed that with a dozer. I’m more concerned about the drivetrain than the engine, undercarriage or hydraulics as I lack the experience to assess that. The dozers in my price range have generally had multiple owners with little verifiable history. I know that parts for my Case backhoe are more reasonable than the equivalent Deere or Cat. Anyone have comparisons for small dozer parts? A friend sold his New Holland dozer because parts were expensive. Another bud bought a Volvo backhoe for what seemed like a bargain until he needed parts.

 

[MG84]

I can’t help on the undercarriage without seeing it, but I can give some advice on the Case 450c. I have a late model Case 450c wide track and absolutely love it. Was looking for a standard 450c but came across this wide track with 20” pads and limb risers. Its longer, wider and I believe about 2000lbs heavier than the standard 450c and turned out to be just what I needed. Very low ground pressure and will hang on some ridiculously steep hills, makes a really sweet little grading tractor thats easy to haul. Had 2572 original hours on it when I bought it two years ago, paid $13k for it.

Undercarriage was quite good, rails and sprockets were excellent, pads at 70%, did have one bottom roller with a bad bearing. Got the tractor cheap because it had been sitting for 9 yrs unused and needed every cylinder repacked and 14 new hoses, and a few little odds and ends. Did all the work myself, got hoses made at NAPA and used all OEM Case parts for everything else, think I had about $2500 in parts.

Case still sells probably 75% of the parts for these machines and prices usually aren’t that bad, they share a lot of common parts with other models. There will be some less common parts that Case has ridiculously priced but there are plenty of used/aftermarket parts if need be. Most parts are either in stock at my local dealer or can be had in two days or less. I try to always buy OEM parts since I make my living with this machine and longevity is more important than a few bucks saved.

The drivetrain on these is very robust and usually dosen’t give any problems. Same with the 3.9l Cummins engine, also very good. The Independent track speed, power shift transmission is very versatile once you get used to it. One thing to look for is if the model you are looking it is new enough to have wet brakes and transmission modulation. Mine is an ‘87 year model and has the wet brakes, there is a serial number break when they started that, I can look it up if you need. Wet brakes are nice because you can actually use them without wearing them out, these models also had modulation the power shuttle which makes shifting forward/reverse a lot smoother. The early models were fine, you just didn’t steer with the brakes unless absolutely necessary.

The 450c is also very easy to work on compared to similar vintage JD models since all the drivetrain is componentized. With that said the JD 450 is a little more ruggedly built and the weight reflects it. The standard Case 450c is around 11,000lbs and the wide track close to 13,000 vs 14-15k+ for the similar vintage JD 450. The case 450c is a good step up in performance and features vs the 350 JD’s however.

 

[Bote]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like you got a great deal on your tractor. I spent about 30 minutes with the 450C I'm looking at yesterday. I put a battery in it and it started right up. The brakes don’t work and it wouldn’t shift into hi range. I’m going back tomorrow with a friend who owns a 550. I’ll bring some spray lube in the chance that range lever linkage is stiff from sitting outside. Looks like there’s a bellcrank assembly down there. I'm more concerned with the shifting than the brakes. The serial number is 3078945 which my Case dealer says is a 1987. My friend spent about $5k on the undercarriage after he bought it but that included labor. He said the sprockets and pads were replaced but doesn't know what else. He didn't even know the transmission had a hi range.

 

[DMiller]

If never shifted it could be reason is locked out currently.
Brakes on these used to adjust like a car.

 

[Bote]

I can’t help on the undercarriage without seeing it, but I can give some advice on the Case 450c. I have a late model Case 450c wide track and absolutely love it. Was looking for a standard 450c but came across this wide track with 20” pads and limb risers. Its longer, wider and I believe about 2000lbs heavier than the standard 450c and turned out to be just what I needed. Very low ground pressure and will hang on some ridiculously steep hills, makes a really sweet little grading tractor thats easy to haul. Had 2572 original hours on it when I bought it two years ago, paid $13k for it.

Undercarriage was quite good, rails and sprockets were excellent, pads at 70%, did have one bottom roller with a bad bearing. Got the tractor cheap because it had been sitting for 9 yrs unused and needed every cylinder repacked and 14 new hoses, and a few little odds and ends. Did all the work myself, got hoses made at NAPA and used all OEM Case parts for everything else, think I had about $2500 in parts.

Case still sells probably 75% of the parts for these machines and prices usually aren’t that bad, they share a lot of common parts with other models. There will be some less common parts that Case has ridiculously priced but there are plenty of used/aftermarket parts if need be. Most parts are either in stock at my local dealer or can be had in two days or less. I try to always buy OEM parts since I make my living with this machine and longevity is more important than a few bucks saved.

The drivetrain on these is very robust and usually dosen’t give any problems. Same with the 3.9l Cummins engine, also very good. The Independent track speed, power shift transmission is very versatile once you get used to it. One thing to look for is if the model you are looking it is new enough to have wet brakes and transmission modulation. Mine is an ‘87 year model and has the wet brakes, there is a serial number break when they started that, I can look it up if you need. Wet brakes are nice because you can actually use them without wearing them out, these models also had modulation the power shuttle which makes shifting forward/reverse a lot smoother. The early models were fine, you just didn’t steer with the brakes unless absolutely necessary.

The 450c is also very easy to work on compared to similar vintage JD models since all the drivetrain is componentized. With that said the JD 450 is a little more ruggedly built and the weight reflects it. The standard Case 450c is around 11,000lbs and the wide track close to 13,000 vs 14-15k+ for the similar vintage JD 450. The case 450c is a good step up in performance and features vs the 350 JD’s however.

The serial number is 3078945. How do you tell if a tractor has wet or dry brakes?

 

[alrman]

The parts diagram does not specify a serial number break for the different brakes.
However the brake housings are very different.
Dry brakes have a two piece housing & Wet are a three piece housing.

 

[Bote]

I can’t help on the undercarriage without seeing it, but I can give some advice on the Case 450c. I have a late model Case 450c wide track and absolutely love it. Was looking for a standard 450c but came across this wide track with 20” pads and limb risers. Its longer, wider and I believe about 2000lbs heavier than the standard 450c and turned out to be just what I needed. Very low ground pressure and will hang on some ridiculously steep hills, makes a really sweet little grading tractor thats easy to haul. Had 2572 original hours on it when I bought it two years ago, paid $13k for it.

Undercarriage was quite good, rails and sprockets were excellent, pads at 70%, did have one bottom roller with a bad bearing. Got the tractor cheap because it had been sitting for 9 yrs unused and needed every cylinder repacked and 14 new hoses, and a few little odds and ends. Did all the work myself, got hoses made at NAPA and used all OEM Case parts for everything else, think I had about $2500 in parts.

Case still sells probably 75% of the parts for these machines and prices usually aren’t that bad, they share a lot of common parts with other models. There will be some less common parts that Case has ridiculously priced but there are plenty of used/aftermarket parts if need be. Most parts are either in stock at my local dealer or can be had in two days or less. I try to always buy OEM parts since I make my living with this machine and longevity is more important than a few bucks saved.

The drivetrain on these is very robust and usually dosen’t give any problems. Same with the 3.9l Cummins engine, also very good. The Independent track speed, power shift transmission is very versatile once you get used to it. One thing to look for is if the model you are looking it is new enough to have wet brakes and transmission modulation. Mine is an ‘87 year model and has the wet brakes, there is a serial number break when they started that, I can look it up if you need. Wet brakes are nice because you can actually use them without wearing them out, these models also had modulation the power shuttle which makes shifting forward/reverse a lot smoother. The early models were fine, you just didn’t steer with the brakes unless absolutely necessary.

The 450c is also very easy to work on compared to similar vintage JD models since all the drivetrain is componentized. With that said the JD 450 is a little more ruggedly built and the weight reflects it. The standard Case 450c is around 11,000lbs and the wide track close to 13,000 vs 14-15k+ for the similar vintage JD 450. The case 450c is a good step up in performance and features vs the 350 JD’s however.

Do you run Hytran in your transmission?

 

[MG84]

Do you run Hytran in your transmission?

I run Case TCH, its the only fluid approved by case for these. On some machines (backhoes etc) they recommended TCH and Hytran interchangeably, but only TCH for these dozers.

Don’t worry about the stuck range shifter, its probably that way because its never been used. Low range gives 1st and 3rd on the powershift sticks, High range gives 2nd and 4th, both if which are too fast to be useful on these tractors. Leave it in low range and don’t mess with that shifter. 1st and 3rd are the perfect speed for 95% of what you’ll need.

The serial number break for wet brakes is after GBE 0001501. I’m not for certain, but if it’s just a straight number without GBE in front of it, I think that is the older serial numbers and would mean dry brakes. If its a good tractor otherwise I wouldn’t let the dry brakes be a deal killer.

 

[Syleng1]

If you are considering this machine, yes cost is kinda up there depending on condition. Take a look at the track chains. If they are perfectly round or are they worn thru where the sprockets touch them.
If they are round- can you see underneath (the pad side) are they worn there like the pins and bushings have been turned.

Also check for the middle of the front idlers- worn below specs or they sit pretty high into the links. Also lift the blade and manually go out and try to move tue blade around. Try it driving it and watch the blade and look for wiggle. Lower it on the ground and have a helper watch tue push frame as the blade hits the ground. Does it raise up (play). Pistons and hoses leaking or cracked (hoses) i
Mean there are a ton of things to check like will it track straight. Brakes apply evenly. Maintance records. Dozers are a great tool that will sit more then they work…. But when they work they are AWESOME!
Good luck and keep us posted. I’m curious to see photos.
Syleng1

 

[Bote]

Today I spent a couple hours checking the dimensions of the undercarriage parts per the service manual. Everything but the idlers had almost no wear. The bushings were perfectly round with no flat spots. The sprocket teeth showed little wear. Unfortunately, the idlers are both worn 100%. My friend spent about $5k on the undercarriage right after he bought it in 2008 but he doesn’t remember what parts were replaced. Obviously not the idlers, but most likely everything else. He put less than 100 hours on it over the 15 years he owned it. The service manual mentions having idlers reconditioned. What is the reconditioning process? The cheapest new ones I found are $800 each not counting freight. One of the shoe plates has a crack. Can these be welded?

I sprayed Kroil on the range shifter linkage last week and it was free today. It tracks straight and everything seems tight. It has NO brakes; they didn't work when my friend bought it. It has the dry brakes. A bud who has owned two 450s drove it today and pushed some big logs around. He said it was "tighter" than either of his. I attached a few pics. I have more but was limited to 4.

 

[Bote]

I run Case TCH, its the only fluid approved by case for these. On some machines (backhoes etc) they recommended TCH and Hytran interchangeably, but only TCH for these dozers.

Don’t worry about the stuck range shifter, its probably that way because its never been used. Low range gives 1st and 3rd on the powershift sticks, High range gives 2nd and 4th, both if which are too fast to be useful on these tractors. Leave it in low range and don’t mess with that shifter. 1st and 3rd are the perfect speed for 95% of what you’ll need.

The serial number break for wet brakes is after GBE 0001501. I’m not for certain, but if it’s just a straight number without GBE in front of it, I think that is the older serial numbers and would mean dry brakes. If its a good tractor otherwise I wouldn’t let the dry brakes be a deal killer.

The local Case dealer doesn't stock TCH. They use Hytran in the service department but said they rarely see 450Cs these days. I'll check on ordering TCH.

 

[DMiller]

Get hold of a service manual or a tech to attempt a brake adjustment. Adjusters may be frozen at this point. Obvious Sealed and Lubricated pin rails, height of links looks decent minimal sprocket wear so you may have found a really good princess not needing shoes.

 

[DMiller]

Can weld a shoe but why? Either buy a used or just buy a new.
As to the rails is there a solid side set of links? That would be the joined split link assembly which makes replacing Idlers much handier.
Can have a experienced shop welder bring well worn idlers back into spec, may have to replace bearing seals while inspect bearings.