Here's a bit of history-still happening-FMC/KMC

[sawmilleng]

We just sold three FMC/KMC tracked skidders that we converted into forestry firefighting machines some time back. They're an interesting machine that might have had a future in logging if some of the early problems were fixed sooner.

They were originally built by FMC, and based off of one of their military tracked carrier designs. FMC made about 1100 of these things before selling the rights to KMC, based in Nelson, BC in about 1988. KMC is still around today but I'm not sure just how many new machines are sold nowadays.

They are basically a tracked carrier that can have pretty well anything you can imagine attached to it. diamond drills, augers, off-road manlifts (for power utilities), tracked dump trucks, welding machine carriers for pipeline work, and, in the case of forestry, log skidders.

We bought three units in about 1988 and used them for 4 or 5 years as grapple skidders. I believe they cost too much to operate so they were put out to pasture. They were very utilitarian--probably a leftover from their military beginnings--take a look at the photo of the cab interior. They were differential steer, and these ones were Detriot powered. However, they were a decent carrier and our management at the time decided to convert the machines to fire fighting water tankers with pumps and related equipment. I don't think they saw a whole lot of service but they sure look like they are ready for a serious fire!

I sure would like to hear some opinions and experiences from anyone who has used this equipment. Please correct me if I have any of the history wrong!

Jon.

 

[imbzcul8r]

I ran a new one in 1978/1979, it was a 210 CA which I think stood for choker arch. It worked fairly well, we were in old growth, and it was impressive where they would go, I think the ground pressure was only 5 psi. The only major problems we had was the track pads bending. They had a hexagon pin running through a rubber & steel bushings with nuts on each end of the pin, the pin & pads would bend. We never broke a torsion bar, but I think others had lots of problems with them. They were expensive to buy too, $200,000 rings a bell & that was 30 some years ago.

 

[John C.]

I worked for the dealer in Washington State back in 79 through 81 and I know a bunch went through the doors. They would get logs like no tomorrow but they had huge problems in high production. Torsion bars were mentioned but road wheels and sprockets could also be a problem.

The tracks originally were military but a civilian version was produced. At that time as I recall they ran in the $20,000 range for a set. We used to pull sections of several tracks and make one good track.

The differential case was made out of some kind of exotic aluminum alloy. The decay juice from wood and rain would eat the case up and it would end up leaking all the oil out and ruin the box. To get the box out of the machine you had to pull the engine and transmission first. If you had trouble with the transmission and had to remove it, the engine would have to come out with it. I used to liken the whole process to gutting a bumble bee.

I used to see the arches all busted up and wondered how that could happen. When I was out on a site one day I saw it. A machine had hooked onto a log that was too heavy and the arch wouldn't pick it up. The operator simply put the machine is reverse and backed into the log until the arch was forced up and the back of the machine pushed under the log. Once the log was on the back deck of the machine he sucked the winch in tight and drove away.

The machines were pretty smooth for operators because of the torsion bar suspension. Still one could become a pin ball in what little cab there was. Hard hats were required or head aches would ensue.

I have seen several of these machines built to different applications and think fire fighting was one of the best. The machines usually sit most of the year, they now carry a specified load when they do work and fire fighters are not loggers. They usually wouldn't put the machine in places it ought not go. I think it is great getting paid rent on a machine where if everything is right, it is never used.

Thanks for the thread.

 

[sawmilleng]

Sounds like no one was home in the improvement dept.

John C. and imbzcul8r,

You both put forth interesting comments. I noticed right away that these machines, although looking rough, tough and built for the job, two fit nicely on the step deck with load capacity left over. Yet I had two Cat 528 rubber tire grapple skidders in the yard and suggested to another trucker than he put both on his truck. He laid an egg on the spot. So these FMC's are built quite a bit lighter than comparable equipment.

I have to assume that nobody very intelligent manned the product improvement department with FMC! It sounds like they had years to make improvements but milked the same old design year after year!

The issue of an aluminium gearbox must have been a military holdover for sure! I would have hoped the newer machines were converted to good old cast iron gearboxes....probably less costly to produce, too.

I've heard that the latest KMC machines can be had with hydrostatic track drives. This probably gets around some of the transmission access problems. Hopefully KMC would have put in a tilt cab or something similiar to get at the innards in a expedient manner. I don't really know.

The tracks seem to be a bit of a puzzle to me--it is easy to make the track plates heavier, which KMC has done...each link has gained about 20 lbs, up to over 50 from 30. But the rubber bushing setup looks like the weak part big time--the idea is to keep from metal-to-metal contact--great in theory. But I can't believe that the rubber bushings do very well when the track is under heavy tension, like you would see when pulling a huge log loose, wide open in low gear, with the torque converter maxed out. I'll bet those tracks can see 50,000lbs pull. Its a wonder the rubber isn't just squirted out the sides of the bushings! Even nowadays KMC states that some of the rubber bushings have to be replaced every 1000 hours and the rest at 1800 hours. You must be right about the value of the tracks--we had a whole bunch of used track squirreled away inthe back of the yard like it was real valuable.

I was told that the torsion bars were nice but tended to break, not when riding up over an obstruction, but when coming off an obstruction too fast and going hard into the stop or whatever they had for a return travel limiter.

I heard they are still plenty spendy--someone told me $450,000 for one today. I'm not sure how that compares with something like a Cat D5 tracked skidder (I forget the model no.) but I'll be you would have change left over after buying the Cat...and relatively few track (or machine) problems.

I've added a couple of photos of the one 1988 KMC serial no. 0001 (first they built!) and a photo of he upgraded track and wider track sprockets retrofitted to one of the FMC's. Thats a brand new track!-- it hardly has any sprocket marks on the pads yet.

Jon.

 

[alco]

I've always had an interest in these machines since they were built very close to where I grew up......only a short drive to the next town basically.

Here's their website. www.kmc-kootrac.com

 

[Puffie40]

The one military vehicle I beleive these are based on is the M113 APC It used a special aluminum armor to help reduce its weight.

I have to assume that nobody very intelligent manned the product improvement department with FMC! It sounds like they had years to make improvements but milked the same old design year after year!

It may be that FMC was making so much money on the military side (Where over 50 countries, including the US, are still using them - over 80,000 of them were made!) that they did not bother to focus on the forestry side of the market.

 

[mabarkwire]

any left to sell

do u have any more tracked skidders that were converted into forestry firefighting machines or fire fighting water tankers

 

[sawmilleng]

Hi, Mabarkwire,

We sold everything we considered surplus at the time. We kept one more firefighting machine for our own use, which is a Cat 528 rubber tired skidder set up with tanks, pumps and the related jewlery -- set up very much like the FMCs/KMCs that we dumped.

Jon.

 

[mabarkwire]

thanks for reply back

if u come across anymore please let me khow

 

[2005kes2005]

We have them

do u have any more tracked skidders that were converted into forestry firefighting machines or fire fighting water tankers

Mark we have the 3 tembec FMC Firecats and are interested in selling
Murray 250 368-7044

 

[barnold]

Looking for fire units

I would be interested in seeing pics of these units.
barnold@firenet.org

 

[2stickbill]

There was a Logger here in Texas that used the FMC cable skidder.Great in muddy ground.Finally parked them because of expenses.Mostly under carriage.

 

[LOGDODGER]

Great machines when they were going, wasnt many days youd make it through without having to spanner somthing!!

 

[chevota84]

We run a 210 and a 220 as skidgines. Amazing machine in that application, fast and stable.

 

[Jumbo]

Prior to seeing the FMC Skidders, both line and grapple, I saw what I seem to remember as a Bombardier skidder, about ¾ the size of an FMC. It had a tilting arch that would pick up the butts and let them ride on the machine similar to the FMCs. They only had a 5/8 drum line with a hook, set up for cat chokers. They did not have sliders on the line. I only saw two of them and they were in a surplus yard here in Seattle. This was around the early ‘70s. Does anybody else remember them?

 

[akroadrunner]

I worked for a gyppo logger summer of 1980, running FMC's on the mudflow picking up logs that had washed down the Cowlitz River. These machines were the only ones able to get out on the fresh ash/mudflow. Do that AND pull in old growth logs. I could take that little FMC places that were too soft to walk on. The machines we used were brand new, so we had no problems with them. Sure, the cab was small, but really liked operating them.

 

[Vigilant]

Prior to seeing the FMC Skidders, both line and grapple, I saw what I seem to remember as a Bombardier skidder, about ¾ the size of an FMC. It had a tilting arch that would pick up the butts and let them ride on the machine similar to the FMCs. They only had a 5/8 drum line with a hook, set up for cat chokers. They did not have sliders on the line. I only saw two of them and they were in a surplus yard here in Seattle. This was around the early ‘70s. Does anybody else remember them?

The Bombardier Muskeg Jimmy? Never heard of it.

 

[Vigilant]

I worked around a couple of FMCs back in the Seventies, 210s I believe, with inverted grapple bunks and swinging grapple booms to load the bunks. Nice machines from what I remember, except the hydraulics. I believe the hydraulics, and particularly the swing booms, were the reason they were eventually sold. Had 6V53 Detroits in 'em.

 

[chevota84]

The 220 working on a fire

The 220 and 664 clark

 

[69hayes]

These dam things would go just about anywhere but they did not like snow building up in the tracks and rocks were real hard on them too, they could be a real bear to change out track pads unless you had hydraulics to push a stuck pin out, they also had a nasty habit of biting your hanging chokers off.